Safe Speed Forums

Perhaps you should simply post in literate English when these misunderstandings would not occur and explanations would not be necessary. So many of your messages are barely comprehensible - for example WOE does does "it preventer recurrence" mean? If your education was so lacking that you never learned to speak English properly, which seems unlikely considering the responsible posts which you have occupied, then I apologize and I am sure that we would all be willing to assist you. Otherwise I can only conclude that you are a slovenly writer who never checks what you have written: an attitude which is insulting to your intended audience.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I'm keen to chip in here - but with a variety of only just related points!

First of all, I'm a Mechanical Engineer - I sometimes hear the profession referred to as "applied scientists" - which I think fits fairly well, although it's a very broad discipline. I don't design things these days (well, not for a living anyway!) I've never worked with any really theoretical "ivory tower" pure scientists - although I worked at a universityfor a while and some of the professors and Senoir Lecturers were as close to that as I'd ever want to work with!

Also rust, yes I agree that stopping it get a hold in the first place is the best policy, but sometimes that's just not possible in real life. If it isn't, I've not come acros anything that "reverses" the process. You can strip away the oxidised layer, but what you're left with is the original component LESS however much of itself was converted to the iron oxide that you just removed. With thin sheet (like car bodywork) I often find that complete removal is impractical, but the next best thing is to use one of those "converter" type chemicals which bumps any rust present up to its highest (and most stable) oxidation state. This is usually blue/black rather than brown. After that, it's just a question of keeping the oxygen away from it. Ifind most paints (over a suitable primer) will do this if enough layers are put on. The paint film seems very slightly permeable to oxygen so more coats than advised tend to work well for me. Also zinc-rich primers seem good IF (and only if!) you can get one with a hell of a lot of zinc in it (like "Galvafroid"). A lot of the so-called zinc-rich primers in DIY shops don't have much in them. You can often feel the weight difference between wo similarly sized tins.

Consider yourself insulted( if you feel that way) - possibly because I can't find the time to re letter or replace my keyboard as a lot of the markings have worn off ,or are you one of the national Typo/Spelling Police with nothing better to do than seek out posts where someone has not noticed that their old Keyboard has gotten to the dump stage and decided to act like a great white at the sign of a miss spelled word, which a spell checker doesn't pick up . Grow up -lighten up - I could go round nit picking on grammar /spelling( or some of you're postings) , but chose to read what I think was intended in the best possible light ( rather than post on their miss giving) . I on the other hand judge someone on what is not written in their posts , but what they insert in the missing spaces . And on that premise ,I would sooner walk through a field of puff adders who will not strike unless upset ....................

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I do consider it rather arrogant of you to expect your readers to go the considerable effort of translating your fractured English because you are too lazy to replace your broken keyboard. If you are too poverty stricken or can't spare the few minutes it takes to buy one I will happily send you one of my spares.


Not at all. We all make typos and other minor errors - as you are quick enough to point out. So long as they don't render the message unreadable or, worse, ambiguous they are no problem.


What a wonderful basis for meaningful dialogue. If I applied that judgement to what you didn't write I would conclude that you are a charming, intelligent, considerate, handsome, unprejudiced, liberal thinking person. But I prefer to read what you do write ....

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I have no problem with that type of Scientist - they usually know their limitations as practical men and gratefully accept help. It is the more hands on types who who are the problem - they tend to think that a PhD is more use than a lot of experience.


I think, from memory, that those "converters" contain tannic acid and convert the iron oxide to iron tannate which is more stable and, crucially, much less permeable to water. But I will happily be corrected on that.
I don't know how Hammerite works but I know that does, provided, as you say, that you put enough coats on to completely seal the surface. The trouble with H is the cost of the solvent. I usually buy a pack of cheap brushes from the pound shop and dump them rather than clean them.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

You've only got one quotation mark in your sig dcb Maybe you're in the froze of correcting it

I'm a cheeky little monkey today


I'm glad you mentioned that chemical stuff Mole because I remember back in the 70s using something on my motorbikes which turned rust into a blue compound, but can't remember what it was called now.

Of course back then Japanese motorbikes looked great until you wheeled it out of the showroom whereupon they immediately turned to rust before your eyes. They had a remarkable technique for applying the thinnest chrome plate known to man.

Same thing with the old Datsuns; very reliable but they ended up as scrap because they just fell apart with rust after five years +1 day.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Congratulations, Tony. You win my "spot the dilaberate mistake" competition.


Nothing new there, then.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

These actually work quite well on surfaces that have a good layer of firm (but not too thick) rust

They dont work so well on largely unrusted metel since they need the presence of rust for the reaction to take place.

The problem with electrolysis is that it leaves the surface more or less rust free but highly reactive so a very thin oxide layer forms almost instantainiously on removal from the tank and washing.

What I am looking for is a primer that can chemically neutralise this sort of very thin layer and proivde an undercoat at the same time. I am sure such things were available in the past but no longer seem to be.

Another trick I have used on "Clean" surfaces was dipping in "Fernox DS9" (wwhich was a phosphoric acid bases central heating cleaner) this worked well and was sufficiently inexpensive that one could make up large tanks for dipping stuff in. It could also be used for removing heavier encrustations of rust but you had to be carefull about how you used it since it was quite aggressive)

Unfortunatly DS9 is no longer available (No doubt due to some sort of greenwash ecobabble! ) and although phosphoric acid is available "mail order" it seems jolly expensive compared to what I remember and I dont seem to be able to find out what concentration to use.

Ho Humm.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

What about the original 'Red Lead' paint - wasn't that really good for rust and stopping rust ?
I bet many people have old part used tins lying about in garden sheds ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Red Lead is very good for preventing rust on clean metal. Not so good for dealing with existing rust.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Does anyone else find it sad that a thread about rust has had more posts made on it than most threads about road safety?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Perhaps it is just a bit of a change ?

After all most of the forums deal with Road Safety one way and another.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Not really - not in the "General Chat" section at least! I hang out on a variety of fora and it seems common that most of them have some sort of "virtual pub", or "general" or "off topic" board. These often seem to see more posts than the "core" subjects to which the site might be officially dedicated. Just human nature, I think?

That's right.

Certain things ‘sell’ more than others. It’s just not possible to sex-up the core subject here, unless someone sets fire to a speed camera using a thousand G-Strings.

That might work…

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Agreed

I think the phosphoric acid based ones will - it just takes longer. Rust (the common brown rust at any rate) is Iron (III) oxide and the black stuff that you get after the acid is FePO4 - ferric phosphate. I think you can still get that on clean metal, it just needs more time and more acid to get there without the metal having first got to its (III) oxidation state.


Is galvanising not an option? I live in the back end of nowhere and even here, there's a bloke who will call in, collect pretty much any part, big or small, and bring it back to me in a couple of weeks. I've had trailer chassis and garden gates galvanised before now by him - he just drives round collecting stuff until he's got a big enough load to make it worth taking to the galvanisers. OK, if you're getting a small part done, you have to wait a good while, but it's by far the best rust-prevention technique I've used. All paints get chipped, abraded and broken down by ultraviolet sooner or later. I know galvanising doesn't last forever, but it's usually good (depending on application) for many years and not as expensive as you'd think. Last time, I think it was something like a £1 per kilo - plus a surcharge for small components.

...and rust prevention IS "sexy"????!!!!

You need to get out more, mate!

Ill chip in at this point with my own recommendation for an anti rust paint that actually works.
It works way better than hammerite or indeed any other supposed preventers ive ever come across.

Its called POR15.
It sets as hard as nails, yet it remains highly flexible with a tenacious grip.
You can paint it on to clean metal or directly over a rusted surface.
Ive experimented with it after spilling some on some polythene ( it wont stick to some plastics) and its so flexible you can almost roll it up, yet on any surface its very very hard to mark it or scrape it off, id say its as tough as powder coating- yes.
Its not susceptible to ANY solvents when dry so you MUST remove it before it air dries.
Its a one component polyurethane product that ive got total faith in and it dosent stink too much either.

Its not exactly cheap, but if you want a product that absolutely does what it says on the tin, then thats the one for you.
You can get it from Frost Automotive Restoration on the web, theres even a clear version.

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"Safety" Scamera Partnerships;
Profitting from death and misery since 1993.

Believe nothing- Question everything.

Yes, I've used it before and have been impressed. Not so good on clean surfaces unless they have been sand blasted or very thoroughly abraded though. Also difficult to get top coat paint to stick to it. Absolutely brilliant on surfaces with a thin, uniform coating of rust. It's a pain to use because it sets with atmospheric moisture, so once you open a tin, you need to be really careful about re-sealing it. Also, if you EVER spill so much as a drop on the mating surfaces of the tin and the lid, you can kiss goodbye to EVER getting the lid off that tin again! I've destroyed a tin trying! Best to trap some cling film between the tin and the lid when re-fitting. They sell other stuff for preparing the surface first - I find the "starter packs" are the best value (although it is jolly expensive)! I'd say it was better than ployester powder coating but not as good as epoxy powder coating.

I know zinc plate, galvanising, is good but I’ve never understood how or why galvanised metal eventually gives in? I haven’t researched this but I assume during the electrolysis process zinc adheres to the base metal faithfully, everywhere that electricity conducts, yet when I see galvanised fences etc. something obviously breaks down in some areas and I don’t know why?

The best and most effective resistant coating I have ever come across to this day was back in 1979 when I stripped my motorbike and had the frame stove enamelled. (You don't hear of that now ).

I had that bike for eight years after that was done and everything rusted and looked dreadful despite my love and attention apart from the frame which, once cleaned, I swear looked as good as the day it was done.

I wasn’t there during the process but I know the very reputable firm shot-blasted the frame and even when I marked it afterwards, while heaving the engine back in situ, it was almost like diamond and never ever showed a single sign of rust or wear-and-tear.

Quite remarkable really, when I think back...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Traditional "hot dip" galvanising isn't an electrolytic process. It's pretty crude - just dunk the component in a bath of molten zinc and then fish it out and leave it to cool. Obviously hard to control the surface finish, hard to deal with closed sections and tricky if it's a welded structure with lots of residual stresses in it, because the heat of the galvanising bath can distort the component.

During the product's life, the zinc will protect the base metal (like a paint) but if scratched, also protects it sacrificially by donating electrons to the steel underneath. It can only do this until it has all been used up - at which point the steel will begin to rust.

There's also "zinc passivating" (the sort of zinc coating used on brake callipers) - typically gold or silver coloured. That IS an electrolytic process, no heat, good control of finish thickness, but ultimately ( I think) not quite as durable.