Safe Speed Forums

There is what, 7,000,000 people in London? It is a busy, aggressive place no matter if you are on a bike, walking, driving or buying a pint. If you moved to Ludlow it would be calmer and more traquill, but there would be different types of ineptitude.

On Saturday I entered a small round about just as a car and a van had gone past me to the left. I hadn't checked to see that they had cleared my junction before setting off as there seemed no reason or indication that they would stop. They did, and I nearly went into the side of the van (which looked like the stopping had supprised him too). The cars fault for stopping, or my fault for not looking enough?

I notice many drivers coming up to an obstruction*/hazard, be it a cyclist or parked car etc., when another another vehicle is coming the other way and instead of waiting behind it they just slow and squeeze through the gap. It is almost as if they think going slower makes their car narrower.


* No I do not think of cyclists as just obstructions!

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Don't you think that living in London may have coloured your perception of drivers in general? I used to live there and I'd hate to judge the timbre of the average UK driver from the ones inside the M25. Ironically, I would say the worst lane drivers in my area tend to be tourists/weekenders anyway. A Hammersmith & Fulham parking permit is more or less a sign saying "I don't stop for anything when I'm in the country" IME.

It also strikes me as slightly ironic that a Londoner who is "freaked out" by country lanes pronounces on how everyone should drive on them with such finality, but there we go.


Sorry weeps but that's just rubbish. I drive down very narrow country lanes every day, and have done for twenty years. If there is a percentile distribution of speed round blind bends I would say that the 95th %ile of road users still stick to a speed where they could stop in half the distance, otherwise I would witness countless head on collisions, or people driving into obstacles (debris/animals etc.), whereas I see this very rarely.

If you were talking about a two car wide A or B road, I think you may be nearer the mark; people drive faster round corners if they think the way is clear, but again, seven out of ten is a bit histrionic, don't you think? Maybe you need a bit more practice at rural driving.

So in busy traffic I, as the driver following a cyclist, am damned either way. Do I squeeze past at the first opportunity, or continue to follow (potentially for a long while) until a really good gap comes up?

I related on here once being given a really dirty look by a cyclist I had had to follow for some time in my Transit. Being conscious from here what a prickly lot cyclists can be, I had been following at a good distance, and hadn't passed (as I never do) until I could pass good and wide.

My conclusion was that this guy was one of these web cyclists that just hates all drivers, and nothing I could have done would have met with his approval.

And in my experience too, many if not most people are considerate and kind whatever vehicle they choose from artic trucks to shank's pony.



Not mine, but yes, there are some right w******rs out there.

It is a bit more complex than one driver/rider being nice and the next driver/rider being nasty though, it's not even down to individuals in my experience. Sure some people seem to be pretty much constantly angry/aggressive and rude, but others will probably be lovely and nice one day and hasty and careless and possibly downright nasty the next, depends on what time pressures they are under I figure.

Of course most modern cars, however slow the speed, appear to be unable to go through a gap that is less than one meter greater than the width of the car.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Too true, the number of Micra/Fiesta/etc drivers that think they bought the extra wide version which necessitates slowing to a stop for 7ft width restrictions is amazing. Though oddly that does not apply when it is a cyclist and central bollard or oncoming car they are trying to fit between.

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

You're right. I think that applies to every human activity though, from driving to cycling to pushing a supermarket trolley.

Oh yes, but I figure people who get like that in very heavy vehicles that can travel at high speeds (and get to them very quickly) really should leave it outside!

How did I know your answer would refer to vehicle weight & speed?

That's not fair! I knew it too

Here's a thought for you weepej and a question I don't think has been asked of you. Do you think there is such a thing as too slow for the conditions, or is that too much of a leading question for you to answer?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

"speed" cannot be a factor in any accident in London or any incident or any scaring of cyclists. Why? We keep being told that the average speed in London is 12mph and no greater than it was in the olden days when we were using horses, and by any measure, 12mph isn't very fast on a road.

So in that case, very few must get killed in London, must be a very safe place to drive and cycle etc.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Oh dear, somebody doesn't understand the difference between average speed and instantaneous speed.

My argument is that despite the average speed in London being pretty low due to junctions/other traffic this doesn't stop some trying to go as fast as they can between the junctions or racing up the the back of queues.

Lost count of the number of times I've been closely passed at speed or simply cut up only to pootle up to the side of the vehicle waiting at the next junction/ back of the next queue.

It's quite common to see people in cars/ on motorbikes literally gun out of red/amber traffic lights (making pedestrians scatter) only to have to stop about 100 metres down the road.

"We all go the same speed round here" I say when I catch them up, sometimes several times to the same person over a couple of miles!

I believe the term is "making progress", and yes, people should travel at a speed so they make progress.

Yup, people can travel too slowly, for instance I get quite shirty at the idiots that slow down to 20 for a speed camera in a 30 zone.

Still doesn't stop me thinking many travel too fast and hurridly.

Because weight and speed (i.e. momentum) are quite a heady mix! (ignoring that it's mass and speed really).

While you're here weepej, let's return to the thrust of the split thread, and the missed questions:


Which could be simply a gear change?

Maybe, just maybe, they were just simply just braking?


Is it really? When do you expect a vehicle to slow when catching a comparatively slow cyclist - before the corner so leaving an unreasonable gap?


How do you hear that? How do you compensate for the different gears and ratios?
What if they're behind you? Have you ever actually ridden into a hedge?


How did you evade someone coming from behind when you were on your bike? I am most curious to know what tricks you employ in these specific situations.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

I've already answered some of those, the rest have answers that are too obvious to bother with.

But anyway, let's have a go:



People who use their brakes to slow down very quickly (i.e. when they are surprised) very often don't bother to change down at the same time which is why I described late gear changing, they slow sharply, too much, go to accelerate again, find themselves in the wrong gear, have to change down a gear.

Dunno bout you but I'm far more likely to use my gears to slow me down as I plan ahead as much as possible and more often than not have time to do so.



You can't tell the difference between harsh braking and a car being slowed in an orderly and organised manner? Oh dear.



Er, with my ears.



You saying can't tell when a car or motorcycle is being driven "spiritedly" (I think "spiritedly" is the PC term on here for "like an idiot") even if you can't see it?

Also when a car is moving fast tyre noise is predominate (presuming it's not drowned out by high revs).



Er...?



Nope, always ready to though and know people that have had to resort to this in cars and on cycles alike.



You brace yourself, plan a route that doesn't involve swerving round any defects in the road so you can ride in a perfectly straight line whilst the idiot passes you (possibly ready yourself to have to go straight across said defect, "go light" in your saddle, ready to bunny hop of necessary), possibly move to the left (because you should be riding in such a way to give yourself space to do this, but without getting too close to the kerb and giving yourself no space for contingency), get ready to slow down or stop, or even sometimes make yourself very wide to slow them.

Also, if somebody is coming at you too fast from behind it's highly likely that their diving for a closing gap, two things will tell you that; there's a closing gap up ahead; engine noise from behind. Of course in this situation you can slow down or stop and let the t**t past.

And riding in London, I'm sure you know, you develop a rubber neck that can swivel 180 degrees, and use this feature often!

But (in the context of this thread) they don't make aggression in road users more or less forgiveable.

Well maybe not, but are you saying somebody who rides a cycle like an idiot is of the same order of irresponsibility as somebody who drives a car like an idiot?