Safe Speed Forums

Let the police* deal with aggressive drivers, or any aggressive road users for that matter!

*the remaining few that cameras haven't displaced.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Or to collect his bonus. No, he would need a large pickup for that.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Worse thing that happened to me was a woman in a BMW convertible driving over my foot while I was stopped on Earls Court Bridge on the A4. I was wearing DMs at the time and it didn't really hurt, but it surprised me and I went "Owww!", which of course she heard, having the top down.

She was quite hysterically apologetic which made me start laughing, which in turn made her start laughing. Surreal...

Maybe she thought you said it as a joke?

Didn’t she ask what’s afoot or offer to give you a toe/tow?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

This thread is pretty surreal; here we have some of the same people who have, in the past, highlighted the cost, financial and to society, of road injuries/fatalities, insisting that wearing a cycle helmet ought to be down to personal choice. Does anyone who believes this also believe that seatbelts and motorcycle helmets ought to be personal choice as well? If so, why? If not, why not?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Although you didn’t mention me by name Robin it’s probably me, or if not I’m complicit. So, at the risk of sounding contradictory on this matter, it just gets on my nerves that the nanny state is interfering in our lives too much and what feels like the last bastion of freedom I have to take a gentle ride down quiet roads helmetlessly could be taken away.

‘They’ can always make a case for ever more safety legislation until we reach a point where all cyclists, (and pedestrians for that matter), have to go around dressed like an American footballer. So where do you draw the line and at what point do you say stop – enough is enough!? I could mention the oft quoted phrase here “if it saves just one life”

Safety is always going to be a compromise between law verses personal freedoms. I have a local shop I cycle to along quiet back road with no gloves or helmet and it’s rare that a car is coming in either direction or anyone feels threatened. Kids cycle up and down it all day in nice weather without incident; it’s that peaceful and slow. Contrast that with my journey to work at peak times in bad weather on main roads where IMO only a fool would not wear a helmet and Hi Viz jacket etc.

I don’t think it’s so far removed from what we have said before, about training and education over laws and law enforcement. I’m going to lose this argument before I start, not that I’m arguing with anyone yet, because the answer these days is always to dumb everything down, hence the ridiculous situation we have with lower speed limits even though we have better and safer cars and road infrastructure.

I'll get my bunker ready..

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I disagree Tone, if we look at the law regarding motorcyclists, its actually pretty permissive; no requirement for any protective clothing, gloves, footwear or hi-viz, all you have to wear by law is a lid, and many people do just that, nipping around on their scooters in little else than a bone-dome. Nobody is being forced to get done up like an American Footballer. I'd say its a pretty good balance between personal choice (I always wear extra protection on the bike myself) and mitigating the high cost of potential head injuries.

Let's put it like this, if healthcare weren't free to all in this country, and personal health insurance policies would not pay out for treatment following an accident where the injured party was not wearing a seatbelt/helmet, would everyone be so keen to go around without them? Its not personal choice, its personal selfishness.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I agree with you there Robin and think it’s hard to make a case for not wearing motorcycle helmets given what motorbikes can do and the way they interact with traffic together with their higher speeds. If we analyse how many people cycle, like myself, we don’t really get up to high speeds though.

So I’m not sure what the difference is between falling off a motorbike at 20mph and falling off a bicycle at the same speed in terms of injury? Indeed, my motorbike is safer, holds the road better and handles better than a bicycle ever could at 20mph, so I could argue that if I am only going around to my corner shop at a slow speed, or have a restricted moped which can do no more than a cycle, why shouldn’t I be able to do so without a helmet? I’m being factitious or course but it does demonstrate how, out of necessity, the law applies in a very broad way without consideration for circumstances.

Using the same analogy I could argue that if I cycle at 10mph or less, (which a lot or most of us do), I’m actually doing the same as if I run or use a fast walking pace yet runners don’t wear helmets and no-one, yet, would suggest they should. But why not? If pedestrians are getting knocked over, and apparently countless numbers are every day, surely the next logical step is to extend helmets to pedestrians? After all, you’re talking about a person travelling at a slow speed who interacts with traffic, much like a cyclist.

I'm tellin' ya it’s the slippery slope friends...

Maybe I should write for the Daily Mail?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

There is no real comparison between the wearing helmets by pedal cyclists and the wearing of seatbelts by motorists.

There is a vast amount of evidence that wearing seatbelts prevents or mitigates injuries in even very violent accidents. There is no such compelling evidence in favour of cycle helmets. Indeed there is some, albeit not entirely convincing, evidence that cyclist KSIs rise where helmets are compulsory.

A manufacturer fitted seat belt is not a major investment compared with the cost of the vehicle and whereas a decent cycle helmet can cost 50% of the coast of the machine.

There is no great inconvenience in wearing a seat belt and the rising number of vehicles sold show that having to wear a seatbelt is not deterring people from using cars. But there is evidence from Australia that compelling the wearing of helmets does reduce the number of cyclists. As there are proven health benefits form cycling those benefits must be set against the additional dangers, if any, of not wearing a helmet.

And, to reiterate a point mde by Tone, why is it only two wheel riders who are said to benefit from wearing a helmet. Many car drivers and pedestrians suffer head injuries.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

All of which is well and good, if not really addressing my point, but would anyone like to comment on whether or not they'd "choose" to wear a helmet if they were liable for their own medical bills, were an injury to be caused that a helmet would have prevented/mitigated?

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I think the answer, or one answer, is that no-one actually goes out with the intention of hurting themselves. So having to pay for medical help or not isn’t the motivation for driving or riding safely and choice of raiment etc.

Personally, I would wear a helmet by choice although I have razzed up the strip at Long Marson drag strip without one just to get the feeling of what it was like before compulsion. My eyes started to water at about 50mph and I think I got to about 60mph before my vision was too blurred to proceed.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I'm not sure that is the answer, for if it were it would fail to explain why I don leathers and gloves on the bike, like so many others. I also don't buckle up my seatbelt/helmet merely because the law prescribes it.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

But that’s my point, I do the same as you but the fact that I would get free health care doesn’t influence what I wear or do anymore than if it was compulsive to pay to get my broken legs fixed by BUPA; I simply don’t want to break my legs.

You asked “whether or not they'd "choose" to wear a helmet if they were liable for their own medical bills, were an injury to be caused that a helmet would have prevented/mitigated”. I don’t think it would change what they do because we don leathers and gloves on the bike to protect ourselves, not on whether we would have to pay for health care in the event of an accident.

I don’t see how making someone pay for their own health care would change their habits because, as I say, no-one goes out with the intention of having an accident. Sure, some people are 'just asking for it’ with the stupid things they do but they’re not thinking about their pocket.

I’m confused now; I feel I’m missing something obvious but I don’t know what?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Yeah, sort of, as I'm not really talking about whether those who already choose to wear a helmet would stop doing so, but whether those who choose not to would start.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I have gone from wondering why cyclists don't wear helmets and think it should be manditry to wondering of there is any evidence that they help any. My guess is that most cycle accidents where one just fall off is done at low speed and limbs get put out and take the brunt of the crash. If there are vehicles involved having some polystyrene on the top of you had won't help much when a car runs over your legs.

When I watch motorbike crashes during races on the telly, they often seem to bang their heads quite hard. Mum told me anecdotally, that when helmets became law the number of donor organs reduced.

Is there any argument about seatbelts in cars?

If someone can show me some evidence that a helmet on a push bike riders head reduces injury I'll get off the fence

Ah! I see now and I don't know the answer

Me too

Quite so, as the NHS euphemistically call it the Summer, 'Donor Season'. Less killed = less spare organs.

And I'll get off with you, so to speak. Seriously, I mean I want some hard evidence...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

The answer to that is self evident except that it begs the question of how do you decide whether or not a helmet would have prevented/mitigated the injury. I would also be prepared to wear a pink ribbon in my beard whilst cyling if the alternative was paying my own medical bills. It would be as useful wearing a helmet.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Me too

A lot of so called evidence goes this way: " I fell over and my helmet was damaged: therefore the helmet save me from a head injury." What that overlooks is the fact that a helmet increases the size of the head very significantly and the fact that the helmet hit the ground doesn't mean that the head would have. I was very aware of that phenomena in my caving days. I had been through caves wearing only a woolly hat without ever banging my head on the roof. But when I went back wearing a helmet it frequently hit the roof. My organ of proprioception was safely keeping my head an inch from the roof but it didn't know about the three inch high helmet I was wearing.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Evidence from Australia suggests that enforcement actually increases head injuries.

And if you discourage people from cycling by mandating helmet wear obviously this has a negative effect on general health as cycling really is such good exercise, non impact, cardiovascular, I believe there are moves afoot to actually have doctors being able to write a prescription for it!

I've read that pound for pound value for money it's best to compel head protection wearing in the following order:

1. Car occupants
2. Pedestrians
3. Motorcyclists
4. Cyclists