Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 09:12

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 14:21 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 19:50
Posts: 3369
Location: Lost in the Wilderness
Just thought some might be interested in this video.

Experiment: Town in England Turns Off Traffic Lights, Surprising Results.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 14:40 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
Thanks Dixie.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I've been saying exactly this for ages. I can cite numerous examples where removal or failures of traffic lights resulted with faster flowing traffic, and the installation of traffic lights resulted with permanent queues.

The overuse of such needless restrictions is why actions such as Red Light Jumping is almost seen as acceptable (more so by cyclists).
Of course, such schemes should not be at the expense of the safety and convenience of pedestrians.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 15:14 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
It doesn't suprise me in the least, I couldn't count on two hands the number of junctions, whether they,ve been staggered T, cross roads or whatever, that I've come cross in my driving life, where the lights have been out, sometimes just for a hour or two, sometimes for days.

Guess what? I've never seen problems with either, accidents, people stuck not knowing what to do, near misses and more importantly queues.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 18:47 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9263
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
graball wrote:

Guess what? I've never seen problems with either, accidents, people stuck not knowing what to do, near misses and more importantly queues.


Happens on my neck of the woods .A certain set on our "ring road" ( the one that made Terry Wogan so famous) when working normally are a recipe for chaos .When they break down -drivers seem to find their lost sense of sense and courtesy and instead of the fight to save losing face -they actually are competing to see who can be the most courteous (or so it seems).

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 19:12 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
Of course, such schemes should not be at the expense of the safety and convenience of pedestrians.


Quite. When the traffic lights in Ashbourne broke down earlier this year vehicular movement was certainly improved somewhat. But it became much harder for pedestrians to cross the road. The fact that vehicular traffic was never brought to a complete halt meant that there were few gaps in which pedestrians could safely cross.

Of course you could eliminate traffic lights and retain PeLiCon crossings. But I would prefer them to be advisory - you could cross the red light if no pedestrians were on the road or waiting.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 19:57 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
Of course you could eliminate traffic lights and retain PeLiCon crossings.

I'll go with that!

dcbwhaley wrote:
But I would prefer them to be advisory - you could cross the red light if no pedestrians were on the road or waiting.

Ooh, RLJ-ing! :twisted:

I'm not so sure about this. Light gambling behaviours aren't limited to drivers. I've seen pedestrians make a mad dash to cross before they lose their phase.

Is it often that you see real Pelicons (not the fixed interval type where the button is merely for show) giving traffic the red phase when no pedestrians are about?
Assuming the road isn't comparatively busy with vehicular traffic, would Zebra crossings be a better solution?
If the road is busy, then instances of 'pedestrianless red pelicons' should be fairly rare (pedestrians have to wait due to lack of appropriate gaps).

Oddly, I recently had an interesting offline debate about pedestrians crossing Pelicons before their phase is green, hence leaving traffic waiting when no-one is on the crossing. I didn't accept their opinion that pedestrians should be made to wait until their phase is green, even if the road is clear. Perhaps allowing RLJ-ing would redress the 'imbalanced' priorities? ;)

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 22:18 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
Ooh, RLJ-ing! :twisted:


RLJ-ing ???

In many parts of the world, Toronto and Berlin spring to mind from my personal experience, they have pedestrian phase which give the pedestrian priority without prohibiting the driver from crossing if no pedestrians are crossing or wanting to cross the road. I think that it shows a green man to the pedestrian and a flashing amber to the driver. Another phase shows red to the pedestrian when it is an offence to cross . Works well.

Quote:
I'm not so sure about this. Light gambling behaviours aren't limited to drivers


Where does gambling come into it? This is a system of strict priorities backed by legislation.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 22:56 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
RLJ-ing ???

Sorry, Red Light Jumping.

dcbwhaley wrote:
In many parts of the world, Toronto and Berlin spring to mind from my personal experience, they have pedestrian phase which give the pedestrian priority without prohibiting the driver from crossing if no pedestrians are crossing or wanting to cross the road. I think that it shows a green man to the pedestrian and a flashing amber to the driver. Another phase shows red to the pedestrian when it is an offence to cross . Works well.

To confirm: does that imply jaywalking laws are used in some form, and that it works well?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Where does gambling come into it? This is a system of strict priorities backed by legislation.

I mean, in this country I see pedestrians running onto crossings when they have the green man, rushing in case they arrive too late and lose their green man (their priority) and have to wait longer. Is that a good recipe for safe interaction? Well, if as you say it 'works well' in other countries....

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 08:27 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
To confirm: does that imply jaywalking laws are used in some form, and that it works well?

I don't know about the law but my observation is that the lights were very well obeyed by both motorists and pedestrians

Quote:
I mean, in this country I see pedestrians running onto crossings when they have the green man, rushing in case they arrive too late and lose their green man (their priority) and have to wait longer. Is that a good recipe for safe interaction?

Can't really see the problem with that so long as they cross on Green. After all a pedestrian moving quickly will be more alert and not subject to the fatigue induced by moving slowly. :D But is that apposite to the discussion of what type of priority system is used?

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Last edited by dcbwhaley on Sun Oct 17, 2010 13:47, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:17 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
dcbwhaley wrote:
Quite. When the traffic lights in Ashbourne broke down earlier this year vehicular movement was certainly improved somewhat. But it became much harder for pedestrians to cross the road. The fact that vehicular traffic was never brought to a complete halt meant that there were few gaps in which pedestrians could safely cross.


Having siad that, I tend to notice that drivers are far more accomodating of peds tentatively crossing the road when they themselves are tentatively negotiating failed traffic lights; every just kind of feels their way across. the junction.

It's almost like traffic lights enforce the them-and-us-ness of different road user groups, and their failure breaks down these barriers.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Having siad that, I tend to notice that drivers are far more accomodating of peds tentatively crossing the road when they themselves are tentatively negotiating failed traffic lights; every just kind of feels their way across. the junction.


That is true. The problem becomes more apparent away from the junctions where the traffic tends to be more continuous, without the gaps induced by distant red lights.

Quote:
It's almost like traffic lights enforce the them-and-us-ness of different road user groups, and their failure breaks down these barriers.


Very good point. That rather reinforce my argument in favour of the shared space concept. Abolishing rigid priorities and making all road users think about their relationship with other users will increase safety, though it might slow down vehicular traffic somewhat.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:39 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 19:08
Posts: 3434
Quote:
though it might slow down vehicular traffic somewhat.


Back to the travelling speed issue again here , I'm afraid.

I believe that although it may affect speed at certain points and slow it, the overall avearge speeds would go up, with less stop starts that we find at traffic lights etc...hence the lack of queueing in the video...same amount of traffic, faster average speeds= less queues.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 13:39 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 21:17
Posts: 3734
Location: Dorset/Somerset border
Spot on.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 14:14 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
Steve wrote:
To confirm: does that imply jaywalking laws are used in some form, and that it works well?

I don't know about the law but my observation is that the lights were very well obeyed by both motorists and pedestrians

I'm confused. I thought we were discussing examples where motorists could drive through red lights? (Toronto, Berlin)

dcbwhaley wrote:
Can't really see the problem with that so long as they cross on Green.

In this country: yes of course, but running into a road where vehicles need not be stopped? (Toronto, Berlin)

dcbwhaley wrote:
After all a pedestrian moving quickly will be more alert and not subject to the fatigue induced by moving slowly. :D But is that apposite to the discussion of what type of priority system is used?

Ha!
I don't know about you, but I've never met anyone who claimed to have dozed off while walking - whilst they were sober anyway :D

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 14:47 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
I'm confused. I thought we were discussing examples where motorists could drive through red lights? (Toronto, Berlin)


No not a red light. That is a stop. IIRC it is a flashing yellow which allows vehicles to proceed provided that there are no pedestrians. TBH I often treat the red at a PeLicCon in that way - cross if there is no pedestrian wanting to use the crossing.

Quote:
In this country: yes of course, but running into a road where vehicles need not be stopped? (Toronto, Berlin)

That does seem to be a potential problem but I suspect that Canadian, and certainly German, pedestrians are rather more disciplined. Perhaps the jay walking laws cover that eventuality.
Even in that part of Canada where pedestrians have absolute priority pedestrians behaved with some circumspection and certainly don't run into the road. But I was told that there is quite a high RTA rate amongst locals when they travel in Europe.

dcbwhaley wrote:
I don't know about you, but I've never met anyone who claimed to have dozed off while walking - whilst they were sober anyway :D

On some of the very long walks I did in my youth keeping awake was a problem. But the problem there was falling of a cliff not been run over by a car. :-)

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 15:03 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:16
Posts: 7986
Location: Moved to London
dcbwhaley wrote:
No not a red light. That is a stop. IIRC it is a flashing yellow which allows vehicles to proceed provided that there are no pedestrians. TBH I often treat the red at a PeLicCon in that way - cross if there is no pedestrian wanting to use the crossing.

Sorry, I really was confused.
You earlier merely advocated jumping "red lights", which isn't what happens - except in America where I believe one can 'turn right on red'?

Having a 'flashing amber' seems like a good compromise.

dcbwhaley wrote:
But I was told that there is quite a high RTA rate amongst locals when they travel in Europe.

Possibly because they're busy sightseeing, or looking the wrong way down the carriageway? That cuts both ways of course.

dcbwhaley wrote:
IIRC it is a flashing yellow which allows vehicles to proceed provided that there are no pedestrians. TBH I often treat the red at a PeLicCon in that way - cross if there is no pedestrian wanting to use the crossing.

Ooh, RLJ-ing :twisted:

...and so it begins, again :D

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 15:10 
Offline
Supporter
Supporter
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:45
Posts: 4042
Location: Near Buxton, Derbyshire
Steve wrote:
Ooh, RLJ-ing :twisted: ...and so it begins, again :D


Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.027s | 14 Queries | GZIP : Off ]