Safe Speed Forums

Driving back this beautiful morning on the country roads from Oxford, I passed two groups of non-motorised road users.

The second, which I'll mention first, was two pairs of horse riders. I was stuck behind the first for less than a minute, despite them being at a slow walk and on very narrow roads with poor visibility, because they were aware of my presence, and thoughtfully moved over at the first opportunity. I was even impressed that they were wearing high-viz, taking responsibility for their own safety, and making themselves much more visible to the horse's natural enemy, the helicopter!

In stark contrast, a few minutes earlier I had passed a group of 15+ cyclists, all lycra-ed up, riding two or three abreast along a trunk road. A long queue of traffic had formed behind this pack, and they showed no inclination towards courtesy to these other road users; it would have been fairly straightforward and convenient for them to move into single file, thus massively increasing the number of locations suitable to safely pass them. I vaguely recall someone mentioning something about rules regarding such large groups taking to the roads ad hoc, can anyone confirm or debunk this?

Finally, there was one other group of cyclists I passed, a father riding slowly in the road, whilst his young son rode along the pavement. Behind them in an Audi, hazards on, was mommy, blocking the traffic and creating another large tailback. Now that's inconsiderate overprotective parenting!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Yes, I've never really had a problem with horse riders in that respect - besides which horse riders are usually better-looking than their cycling counterparts, which makes you want to stick around longer
One issue I do have with horse riders though, is the admittedly few who choose commuting times to ride along busy routes, when horse riding is, almost by definition, a leisure activity.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I've encountered the protective car but combined with a horse rider this time.

Unfortunately as it was getting dark, I saw what I took to be a stationary car on the other side of the road with its hazards on and didn't slow down much, thus startling the horse slightly, which was hidden behind it.

It would have been better for the car to be behind rather than in front, as it was it was totally counterproductive.

It would have been interesting to see the outcome should a plod car have come along. At one time, I'm sure it was an offence, to drive with hazards on.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Superhero: you are hardly comparing like with like. I suspect that a group of 15 horse-riders would have given you a lot more problems than the group of 15 cyclists.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Beardy-weirdy: Probably not - the horse-riders would probably be going much more slowly than the cyclists, and might well stop on the approach of a car, thus making it far easier to overtake.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Not-fit-to-wear-the-uniform: I'm comparing the attitudes of human beings with the attitudes of human beings, so pretty alike I'd say.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

It was a specific health problem rather than physical fitness that caused me to fail the navy selection board.



Not really. Even if both groups were equally well intentioned towards you in your car it would take the horse riders longer than the cyclists to reorganize their positioning. And there is a degree of unpredictability in equine behaviour which adds to the difficulty.

All of which reinforces your initial complaint that the cyclists were behaving without proper consideration. My impression over the last twenty or so years is that the on road behaviour of equestrians has improved considerably whereas that of cyclists has gone the other way. It is rare these days not to receive a wave of thanks when you slow down for horses. I suspect that a lot of modern cyclists, especially the ATB brigade, simply bought a bike and started cycling without going through the tradition route of joining a club, which is where cyclists of my generation learned road etiquette.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Ahh I see how that confused you; I was referring to my own opinion as a serving commissioned officer, not that of the Navy Selection Board.



Not that the make-up of their attitudes were alike, that it was a like-for-like comparison of human attitudes towards others.



Agree with the first bit, though not that one needs to join a cycling club in order to learn road-manners. This would be analogous to those who wonder how atheists can have a code of morals. Consideration for how one's own actions affect others is a pretty innate human ability (I believe only autistic people and sociopaths lack it), some just seem to ignore it! Cycling Proficiency was the way to go for my generation, but maybe we could help people by mandating a copy of the HC be provided with every bike sale, with a sticker on the front reminding that IT DOES apply to pushbikes.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Ah. Perhaps you should apply for a secondment to a Navy Selection Board in order to improve the quality of submarine commanders



Yes, in principal, but the detailed knowledge of how your own actions affect other people is something that has to be learned. And a cyclist has to make a fine judgement between inconveniencing motorists and preserving his own safety. That is why I think that cycling in a group with more experienced riders can only improve behaviour. Especially for non-driving cyclists who do not fully understand the motorist's situation.

Young atheists do have to learn their code of morals (as do believers). Having considered how one's action affect other people one has to consider whether the way they are affected is tolerable to them. Something which is tolerable to yourself might be quite intolerable to another person and mildly annoying to a third.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Nah, I'm far too busy doing something relevant!

I'm not sure how riding in a pack, provoking more challenging overtakes, preserves their safety. I'm also wary of merely having the status quo passed between cyclists, in the absence of formal training they should at least be exposed to a standardised set of guidelines, currently best embodied by the HC.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

But I thought you were an Officer in the RAF.


I am not suggesting it does. I totally agree with your concern as set out in your OP.



A copy of the Highway Code, emblazoned with "This also applies to cyclists", supplied with every bike sold by a dealer would be a good start.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Exactly, I'm off doing something useful in a conflict zone, not on a cruise.

I'm glad we agree that cyclist standards could use some positive action to improve them.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Robin: this isn't personal. I have great respect for your courage and skill. And for the those of every member of the armed forces. But, in the current political situation, there is nothing useful that can be achieved by military action in any of the major conflict zones. Not unless acting as a recruiting officer for terrorists is regarded as useful.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

That's your opinion, presumably formed from the best information in your possession. My experiences, and deductions from sources of information more diverse than those available to you, are that our presence in Afghanistan is making a positive difference.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

If it wasn't physical, presumably it was mental, right?

A difference to what? And that isn't a sarcastic remark. I am very eager to learn everything about our foreign adventures, especially information that is not readily available to the general public

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Well I can't tell you any information that is not available to the general public, even if you take away my iPod I can however tell you that I have first hand experience of improving the lot of afghan citizens beyond the levels that would be afforded to them were we to abandon them to the Taliban.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

This is getting way off topic but in your experience does the average Afghan civilian consider that the indefinite occupation of his country by foreign armies is a worthwhile price to pay for the improvement in his life?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

In my experience most do not consider it an occupation, and the coalition really only have ill-will from the civilian population in areas where they do not have a permanent presence to protect against Taliban reinfiltration and retribution.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.