Safe Speed Forums

By Kieth Peat :

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

An interesting comment from Grumpy Old Sod.



The key phrase here, IMO is "no doubt to try again". This is unknown and speculation. In each case possible commission of offences has been stopped which is surely the one of the purposes of the police. Their role is not just to nick people. If a policeman walking down a street prevents a mugging by his presence could he be said to be obstructing one of his colleagues from arresting the mugger?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Didn't stop me warning other drivers of a camera van hidden in the bushes today

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Prepare to be Judged

When I switched on the radio this morning I caught the tail-end of a discussion about this. (Radio 2)
I heard Richard Madeley say something to the effect of, "If I'm in the newsagents and I warn people in the shop to be careful as I'd passed a speed trap down the road, am I guilty of obstructing justice?"
I don't know if those were his sentiments or if that's his exact wording, but that's how I remember it.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

The GOS analogy is specious, the case is more analogous to Neighborhood Watch signs on lampposts than anyone aiding someone they know to be breaking the law in evading detection.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I'm very surprised about that, as the GOS has always been 'on-side', and very anti-camera.

Do you have a link?

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Looks like it is simply a comment in the Guest Book by a person called "PT" - see entry number 1665 at Captain Grumpy's Guest Book

mb

For those interested in a more balanced view of magistrates, each year something in the region of 1.3 to 1.4 MILLION cases are heard. That figure applies to a few years ago, it has reduced in recent years as so many people have been given the power to issue penalties.

An appeal is a complete new hearing at which new evidence can be presented, so it is not really possible to assume that an appeal which is upheld represents a mistake by the magistrates court that heard the case. I only have access at the moment to appeals statistics for 2005 to set against the 1.3 to 1.4 million cases heard per year at that time.

appeals allowed in full = 3,651
appeals allowed in part = 1,886
appeals dismissed = 3,791
appeal abandoned = 3,477

If my calculations are correct the appeals allowed in full or part amount, together, to about 0.4% of all cases.

Those figures are too high for comfort but clearly show that the picture presented by RobinXe is not accurate of magistrates as a group. I certainly don't recognise the features Robin comments on and I see a lot of magistrates at work. Including in the private discussions in the retiring room.

Robin, I strongly recommend that you report the magistrates you know to the local advisory committee as soon as possible so that they can be removed from office. You will, of course, need to be willing to provide proof and possibly give evidence to back up your assertions.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

There's the massive bite I was anticipating!

You have your expeiences and I have mine, which is the experience I describe, based mainly on my time working in the Magistrates Court, and partially through a handful of magistrates I know personally.

You say that an upheld appeal does not reflect poorly on the magistrates, and then go on to tout how the low proportion of appeals reflects well, whilst neglecting the fact that an appeal is a major undertaking, even were there a guarantee of winning, in the face of a minor punishment, therefore these damned lies and statistics really prove nothing.

I would enquire whether you have any comment to make on the case at hand, when you are done closing ranks?

Incidentally I count you amongst the one or two mentioned.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

The only work in the magistrates courts system which would give the knowledge you claim would be that of a court clerk. So that people reading this can get an idea of how much experience you have - for how long after qualifying as a solicitor or barrister did you work as a court clerk?

What I actually said is that, as new evidence may have been put forward, it is not possible to assume that successful appeals prove a mistake was made lower down the system. To be clear about the matter, I accept that some will be due to mistakes. As is the case when crown court decisions are overturned in a higher court.


I see. My figures based on official returns from all of England and Wales mean nothing. Your opinion based on your personal experience and the one or two magistrates you know proves that I am wrong.


I wasn't there and so do not know what evidence was put forward. Any comment made about a specific case based solely on media reports would be unreliable.


For the benefit of those who may think your opinion of me is based on actually knowing me, I should point out that we have never met. Not what most people would say amounted to "knowing personally".

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Nice selective responding, dodging around the main contention of the low appeal rate.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

The appeal fund here,

http://www.godfreybloommep.co.uk/
The Michael Thompson Appeal

Michael Thompson, 64, from Grimsby was fined for flashing drivers with his headlights to warn motorists of a police speed trap.

He was fined £175 and ordered to pay £250 costs and a £15 victim surcharge.

An appeal has been lodged with the Crown Court, the Crown Prosecution Services and the Clerk to Justices at Grimsby Magistrates Court. A pre-trial review/hearing date is yet to be set.

Godfrey Bloom, outraged by this news offered to help Mr Thompson fight his appeal. He has set up an appeal fund and has hired top Barristers and Solicitors to defend and help with Mr Thompson’s case.

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nigel_bytes

Can you give any more info on the cases that have clearly left you concerned ? It perhaps needs it's own thread but perhaps this needs delving into.
I know that Fisherman only ever tries to show things 'as they are' from the legal perspective. Which can seem 'clinical' to some but are 'as they are', as it were.
Now I know first hand just how tough it can be when tackling Courts, and trying to defend yourself (Inheritance issues) and how extremely stressful this can be for the 'man in the street' not to say the costs, time taken and the stress and worry!
I get the impression that you must too have some experience of this and it would be interesting to comprehend more about what issues arose.
I know that a solicitor behaved completely incorrectly, having the barrister embarrassed, in front of a snr high Court Judge that resulted in costing me £2.5K ! It was disgraceful. I know another that too landed me with more additional costs, and even took authority from a non client - 'on my behalf', - and yes I did try to do what we could to have them 'reported', but it failed due to lack of funds / time which was utterly frustrating. But I understood the Court when we got landed with Costs, they have a rule' and they can only 'judge' by that, and so you can be the victim of that rule-book, and even if the judge finds it wrong too - they cannot 'make those types of exceptions', it has to be 'corrected' elsewhere, which can (wrongly) cost the 'victim' (now) more money and that is unfair, but it is a system that tries overall to be largely 'just' for most.
So could this sort of 'injustice' happened to your or those you know ?

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

No, not to me or anyone I know well, I have just worked in the magistrates' court system, and know other magistrates personally, as I said.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Thank you for that, it sums up (to coin a phrase!) why I post here.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

There's an IAM poll on the subject here:

http://www.iam.org.uk/iam_polls/

Can't make that link work at all.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.