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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 17:27 
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MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist previously wrote:
... effectively riding in too timid a fashion ...
... cowering in the gutter...

Your language betrays you - again!

Oh, please. My language says what it says - nothing more and nothing less. It was you who, incorrectly, inferred that I was talking about you, which seems quite paranoid.

Not at all. All I was doing is explaining how keeping left is not necessarily timid or cowering; I used my own experience merely as proof of logic. If I was that worried I wouldn't cycle at all! So no, I never read your comment as being aimed at me.

Even with that clarified, it is obvious that your language still betrays you.

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Then please explain what your accusation of regression to the mean referred to, if that was not the interpretation you were incorrectly applying.

You have acted immediately following an extreme and rare event (I'm assuming you've been cycling for a long time, at least months); you've drawn a conclusion based on a very short measurement time-frame, one nowhere near enough to expect the event (or anything like it) that caused you to act.

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
Isn't that how PP advocates have been acting?

Isn't what how PP advocates ... etc.?

Making " a big assumption without any evidence to back it up."

</irony>

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
Can the reader now dismiss the claims of 'it is better to keep out of cycle lanes'?

I have never made such a claim as a general rule. Another straw-man. It is, however better to keep out of certain cycle lanes in certain circumstances; or to put it another way, it is not safe to assume that the cycle lane is the safest place to be.

See the highlight: I said "the" not "your". My question remains.

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
I do not have any reason to believe that the car driver would have given me more room if I had been a few inches further left.

So you believe the BMW would have tracked your position and encroached into the cycle lane?

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
me again and again and again wrote:
Could you imagine what would happen if you were further out and that BMW still wanted to thread the needle? I can. You would have been at a greater risk of a left-hook from such p155-taking drivers, especially those frustrated by the needless hold up. Added to that is the strong possibility of slow/stationary vehicles wanting to turn right; your being further right when approaching that could end up being really nasty.

Ah, you do realise that you never mentioned this in the post that I just replied to?

Wrong! Go back and re-read, it is right there!

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
So, the answer to that is quite simple and straightforward. If I were out in the centre of the lane, the BMW would have been behind me, not trying to squeeze through a gap that he though was adequate but which clearly wasn't. I am quite sure that, despite his being an idiot, he probably wasn't a psychopath.

Two obvious problems with that:
1) had you adopted PP and the BMW been slightly earlier in that scenario, he would have applied the same clearance and risked left-hooking you.
2) he could have been a psychopath (do you know?), so surely it is better to be right out of their way?
Your solution still doesn't work.

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
the point is that, in my opinion, you cannot safely go further left with that sunken drain there. I do of course have the advantage of being an eye-witness, which you are not.

I seemingly have the advantage of seeing your line in the video, as well as measuring the time before you reached the grate after the BMW passed. Ho hum!

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
The rest referred to your "cross-examination" and, call if a flaw if your like, but my reaction to that is just: who the hell do you think you are - get knotted.

I am a cyclist and a driver - just like you?
I hope your forum behaviour is never mirrored on the road.

MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
If I get stopped by the Police and they say "According to Steve, this is wrong", then I'll let you know.

I hope they do before you encounter a psychopath, or someone who inadvertently left-hooks you as I described, or someone wanting to make a point.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 18:45 
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Steve wrote:
Stuff that's already been answered.

Don't read between the lines. You are chasing imaginary shadows.

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Then please explain what your accusation of regression to the mean referred to, if that was not the interpretation you were incorrectly applying.

You have acted immediately following an extreme and rare event (I'm assuming you've been cycling for a long time, at least months); you've drawn a conclusion based on a very short measurement time-frame, one nowhere near enough to expect the event (or anything like it) that caused you to act.

You haven't answered the question. What, specifically, is the conclusion to which you refer?

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
Isn't that how PP advocates have been acting?

Isn't what how PP advocates ... etc.?

Making " a big assumption without any evidence to back it up."

No. I've already given you umpteen authoritative references on this.

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
Steve wrote:
Can the reader now dismiss the claims of 'it is better to keep out of cycle lanes'?

I have never made such a claim as a general rule. Another straw-man. It is, however better to keep out of certain cycle lanes in certain circumstances; or to put it another way, it is not safe to assume that the cycle lane is the safest place to be.

See the highlight: I said "the" not "your". My question remains.

Hm, if it isn't a straw-man, then can you reference where this claim has been made? As I don't know the basis for the claim, I really can't comment.

Incidentally, you didn't provide a quantifier for the assertion that you asked me to comment on. Does this assertion refer to all cycle lanes in all circumstances, or just some cycle lanes in some circumstances, or some other permutation of these?

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
I do not have any reason to believe that the car driver would have given me more room if I had been a few inches further left.

So you believe the BMW would have tracked your position and encroached into the cycle lane?

I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't.

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
me again and again and again wrote:
Could you imagine what would happen if you were further out and that BMW still wanted to thread the needle? I can. You would have been at a greater risk of a left-hook from such p155-taking drivers, especially those frustrated by the needless hold up. Added to that is the strong possibility of slow/stationary vehicles wanting to turn right; your being further right when approaching that could end up being really nasty.

Ah, you do realise that you never mentioned this in the post that I just replied to?

Wrong! Go back and re-read, it is right there!

Apologies, you're right. It was there in the next part of that paragraph. However, my response remains the same:

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
So, the answer to that is quite simple and straightforward. If I were out in the centre of the lane, the BMW would have been behind me, not trying to squeeze through a gap that he though was adequate but which clearly wasn't. I am quite sure that, despite his being an idiot, he probably wasn't a psychopath.

Two obvious problems with that:
1) had you adopted PP and the BMW been slightly earlier in that scenario, he would have applied the same clearance and risked left-hooking you.
2) he could have been a psychopath (do you know?), so surely it is better to be right out of their way?
Your solution still doesn't work.

1) He would not have been able to get into a position to left hook with the van there. In any case, he wasn't turning left so I don't see the relevance of the "left hook".
2) Extremely unlikely.

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
the point is that, in my opinion, you cannot safely go further left with that sunken drain there. I do of course have the advantage of being an eye-witness, which you are not.

I seemingly have the advantage of seeing your line in the video, as well as measuring the time before you reached the grate after the BMW passed. Ho hum!

Firstly, you can't see my line as you can't see my wheels; please tell me exactly what calculations you have done to infer my line from what you see. Secondly, the fact that there was a second before I would have hit the drain is irrelevant; in fact that's damn close (about one turn of the pedal crank on my bike!)

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
The rest referred to your "cross-examination" and, call if a flaw if your like, but my reaction to that is just: who the hell do you think you are - get knotted.

I am a cyclist and a driver - just like you?
I hope your forum behaviour is never mirrored on the road.

On the road I don't meet so many annoying barrack-room lawyers with flawed logic who feel they have the right to "cross-examine" me.

Steve wrote:
MrGrumpyCyclist wrote:
If I get stopped by the Police and they say "According to Steve, this is wrong", then I'll let you know.

I hope they do before you encounter a psychopath, or someone who inadvertently left-hooks you as I described, or someone wanting to make a point.

The first comment there is just silly.
Taking primary position most often prevents left-hooks and does not cause them. There are some places where I have been left hooked several times until I started to take primary position at those points, since when it has never happened again. Evidence!

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange


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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 14:29 
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I've not forgotten about this thread, but I'm too busy right now to respond properly.


Posting to vent my disgust at something that occurred literally 10 minutes ago:

Returning from my lunchtime walk, a cyclist with a helmet mounted camera passed me (first time I have seen this with my own eyes), him travelling on a traffic light controlled roundabout (no ASL on roundabouts).
There was a short queue ahead (for the traffic light). He filtered up the left side of to the head of the queue: one of those trucks with an open cab (dunno what they're called). He placed his hand on the vehicle to keep himself steady while waiting (how rude). Then on the green, proceeded to undertake the left turning truck.

:censored:

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 19:58 
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Location: Belfast
Steve wrote:
I've not forgotten about this thread, but I'm too busy right now to respond properly.


Posting to vent my disgust at something that occurred literally 10 minutes ago:

Returning from my lunchtime walk, a cyclist with a helmet mounted camera passed me (first time I have seen this with my own eyes), him travelling on a traffic light controlled roundabout (no ASL on roundabouts).
There was a short queue ahead (for the traffic light). He filtered up the left side of to the head of the queue: one of those trucks with an open cab (dunno what they're called). He placed his hand on the vehicle to keep himself steady while waiting (how rude). Then on the green, proceeded to undertake the left turning truck.

:censored:


:gatso2: That particular cyclist will only get away with that for so long. That's a recipe for disaster. I'm sure there's more than one instance when a cyclist has been undetaking a truck, only to be crushed under the wheels. Of course, the truck driver will be blamed.

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 Post subject: Re: Camera ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:59 
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 15:26
Posts: 117
Steve wrote:
Returning from my lunchtime walk, a cyclist with a helmet mounted camera passed me (first time I have seen this with my own eyes), him travelling on a traffic light controlled roundabout (no ASL on roundabouts).
There was a short queue ahead (for the traffic light). He filtered up the left side of to the head of the queue: one of those trucks with an open cab (dunno what they're called). He placed his hand on the vehicle to keep himself steady while waiting (how rude). Then on the green, proceeded to undertake the left turning truck.

You're right, that is incredibly stupid. Research published last year found that a quarter of the 247 cyclist deaths in London between 1992 and 2006 involved the cyclist being crushed by a left-turning freight vehicle. Apparently, Transport for London have have big poster campaigns specifically to educate cyclists about not going up the inside of HGVs. Unfortunately, the rest of the country isn't so switched on about all this. So there does seem to be at least one benefit to having a (alleged) buffoon as your Mayor.

CJG wrote:
Of course, the truck driver will be blamed.

You really ought to provide evidence to support such an inflammatory comment, though.

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