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 Post subject: Are roads just for cars?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 00:09 
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IAM PR wrote:
Are roads just for cars?
29 August 2011

Fifty-eight per cent of people think that drivers should be held legally responsible for accidents between cars and more vulnerable road users in pedestrian-priority zones, according to the latest poll by road safety charity the IAM.

Woonerfs* are the most sophisticated of these zones, and are a concept which comes from the Netherlands where they are commonly used. They are designed to be used at walking pace to make them safer for more vulnerable road users and encourage cycling and walking. Forty-eight per cent of the 4,000 respondents think the Woonerf concept – with no pavements, giving cars, pedestrians and cyclists equal use of the same road space – is a good idea for use in the UK, with 27 per cent thinking they are a bad idea.

When asked where these zones should be sited primarily, 36 per cent said in shopping areas, and similar areas with high pedestrian traffic, and a further 33 per cent thought they would be of the most use in some residential areas where a particular need was identified. Sixteen per cent think they should be used on all residential roads.

The biggest benefit of the system, as voted for by more than half of the respondents was the removal of street clutter including kerbs, signs and railings. Improved pedestrian and cyclist safety were also popular at 49 and 43 per cent respectively, and only a quarter believed there would be no benefit at all.
Opinion on whether the respondents themselves would want to live in such a zone was evenly split, at 39 per cent each.

IAM director of policy and research Neil Greig said: “Our poll reveals a surprisingly positive attitude towards better protection of cyclists and pedestrians, both in road layout and legal responsibility. On the continent, attractive street design is used to make it clear where pedestrians have priority but this approach is in its infancy in the UK.

“The IAM supports any move to improve safety for pedestrians and cyclists, but research is needed into the best way to inform drivers about changes in legal responsibility, and also on the effect a Woonerf might have on the road sense of children brought up in such a zone, when later exposed to less protected areas.” ENDS

Notes for Editors:
*A Woonerf is a Dutch concept where by design, drivers and riders are restricted to a maximum speed called ‘footpace’ (one of the last archaic concepts in Dutch traffic law) referring to the pace of a horse. In practice this means a 15 km/h (10mph) maximum applies to all drivers and riders. Pedestrians may use all of the road and the responsibility is on drivers and riders to avoid being in an accident with a pedestrian. In an accident with a child under 14 years old, the driver is held to be liable; in one involving a pedestrian over 14, the likelihood is that the court will decide in favour of the pedestrian, but it is not based on explicit traffic law.
The IAM is the UK’s largest independent road safety charity, dedicated to improving standards and safety in driving, motorcycling and cycling. The commercial division of the IAM operates through its occupational driver training company IAM Drive & Survive. The IAM has more than 200 local volunteer groups and over 100,000 members in the UK and Ireland. It is best known for the advanced driving test and the advanced driving, motorcycling and cycling courses. Its policy and research division offers advice and expertise on road safety.
Asking the not very well informed public opinion about road safety is utterly pointless other than to find a way of promoting your own name. How can someone who has little understanding of the concept of accident causes or road engineering give a valid opinion.
Also this type of non pavement (at least) has been tried and succeeded far better than was hoped, in this Country in Kent in the '80's. It was a great success but the speed limited remained at 30mph. The perceived danger of pedestrian closeness saw motorists drop their speed and travel with care, resulting in less accidents. To restrict any area in this Country to 10mph will likely be ignored unless conditions demand it.
I'd like to see the questionnaire that they used.
Are 14yr olds not able to be responsible enough to cross the road ! Most have been using a bicycle probably from many years so I think this is very questionable & yr old yes but this seems very irresponsible ! All people need to take care, not set up ever more segregation in society and make others wholly responsible for others.
So if nearly 60% 'want this' they claim, but only nearly 40% would 'live within that environment' it shows that it is not really as acceptable as they are trying to claim. Were they all aware it was a 10mph zone I wonder ? How many cyclists travel at 10mph anyway ?! What precisely is a 'more vulnerable road user'?
I do like the idea (as it has worked) of an open thoroughfare as it encourages all to be responsible and keep a close look out, which means that more are having to pay attention and concentrate, which in turn, leads to better, more aware drivers that have far less accidents.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 15:41 
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Ridiculous. Blame for accidents should be determined by culpabilty/responsibility alone and no other factors. I also love the way people in this country seize upon an idea that works in another country and believe it will work here. We are characteristically a very different people from the Dutch. What works there may not necessarily work here. Also, the people in power in this country lack every the basic vestige of common sense. You can see this as evinced by most 20mph zones. Every councillor or politician wants be seen to 'improve' their constituency. I can see these springing up everywhere in the most unsuitable places as low-level politicians and local coucillors strive to make their mark.

The legal nightmare of drivers automatically being held responsible for any accident flies in the face of fair play and basic common sense. No win, no fee lawyers must be rubbing their hands gleefully at the very idea of such zones. Presumably the 10 mph limit will be enforced no matter what the conditions or whether anyone is around or not - meaning if in the middle of the night when you are the sole user of a woonerf and you get clocked at 30mph - three times the limit - you are facing the very real possibility of losing your licence. All in all a very bad idea. I did vote in the IAM poll and was against their introduction in Britian. We have zones already in many places that are shared by both traffic and pedestrians and they work just fine, as far as I am aware. So why do we need to introduce a woonerf?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 16:02 
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You are clearly correct about the logic of the person culpable for an incident being the one that receives the sanction. This is the way that a society regulates behaviour that it deems anti-social. If you relieve any group of their responsibility then they will act with impunity to get those deemed legally responsible into trouble.

Unfortunately, there is one problem with this in the case of road users: it is only drivers who are insured and thus have the financial wherewithal to come up with the compensation. It is the financial position which causes this type of distorted thinking.

This is why police don't really bother too much with burglary now. The householder probably has insurance so why not let the miscreants get away with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 16:28 
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It doesn't start well...
IAM PR wrote:
Are roads just for cars?

How emotive, as well as misleading. It subtly demonises motorists, as if to say "motorists have always said roads are only for cars".

What they really mean is "strict liability", where the pedestrian can abrogate their responsibility, but that's probably not such an easy pill to swallow, is it!

IAM PR wrote:
Fifty-eight per cent of people think that drivers should be held legally responsible for accidents between cars and more vulnerable road users in pedestrian-priority zones

What does this mean? Are there 42% of people who think drivers should not be held legally responsible?!?
I agree with you Claire, I also wonder how the questions were posed!

IAM PR wrote:
*A Woonerf is a Dutch concept where by design, drivers and riders are restricted to a maximum speed ... this means a 15 km/h (10mph) maximum applies to all drivers and riders.

Sixteen per cent think they should be used on all residential roads.

So 16% of people think that all traffic on all residential roads should be limited to 10mph? Seriously?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 20:35 
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Sixteen per cent think they should be used on all residential roads.


What is a "Residential" road?? :scratchchin:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 02:52 
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Agreed DoktorMandrake, but do you recall what the questions were in the 'survey', how they were listed and the 'flow' of the questions too by any chance ?
Often many questions that most people will answer 'yes' to, will have a likely 'no' answered question, thrown in there as having answered yes, it is less likely (psychologically) to then say a 'no'. Plus careful ways in which questions are asked can often seem to sound sensible, but when looked at really carefully makes you realise that the negative and positive is really hard to know for sure in which way the question is being asked (even) !
In other words people are fooled into saying what the 'survey' commissioners want !

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:41 
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Was this an online questionnaire open to anyone?

If so it is worthless as a serious research attempt anyway, the same person can fill it out multiple times, could have been filled out by 5,000 12 year old students in Outer Lithuania as an English class exercise, who knows?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:26 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Agreed DoktorMandrake, but do you recall what the questions were in the 'survey', how they were listed and the 'flow' of the questions too by any chance ?
Often many questions that most people will answer 'yes' to, will have a likely 'no' answered question, thrown in there as having answered yes, it is less likely (psychologically) to then say a 'no'. Plus careful ways in which questions are asked can often seem to sound sensible, but when looked at really carefully makes you realise that the negative and positive is really hard to know for sure in which way the question is being asked (even) !
In other words people are fooled into saying what the 'survey' commissioners want !


I remember it was multiple choice. Four answers per question, I believe. I remember they were quite limited, the answers. For instance the answer that truly reflected my position was not always there so I had to settle for the next best one. I am by no means representative, though. My opinions of road safety, green issues etc. aren't exactly the accepted norm. I do not remember too much about the survey questions themselves. No specifics other than I found it rather annoying and possibly tendencious. It certainly would not allow for a truly representational sample. From memory, as stated, there was not the choice of an antithetical response to any of the questions.

You could contact the IAM and ask for a copy of the questionnaire? I realise you are ridiculously busy and I am happy to email them myself but I thought if it came from SS then they may be more inclined to take your request seriously? Although I realise possibly the opposite is true. Would be interesting to have another look.


Zippo wrote:
Was this an online questionnaire open to anyone?

If so it is worthless as a serious research attempt anyway, the same person can fill it out multiple times, could have been filled out by 5,000 12 year old students in Outer Lithuania as an English class exercise, who knows?


Very funny but potentially, at least, very true. I am pretty sure it was open to anyone and so any 'data' or 'conclusions' are indeed worthless. I love the way the IAM prints its findings as indisputable fact. Obviosuly the Institute of Advanced Motorists releases the results of a questionnaire and prints it on their site it will be treated as a credible gauge of public opinion but as you say Zippo, maybe it reflects the opinion of 5,000 Lithuanian twelve year olds. :roll: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 15:40 
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DoktorMandrake wrote:
Very funny but potentially, at least, very true. I am pretty sure it was open to anyone and so any 'data' or 'conclusions' are indeed worthless. I love the way the IAM prints its findings as indisputable fact. Obviosuly the Institute of Advanced Motorists releases the results of a questionnaire and prints it on their site it will be treated as a credible gauge of public opinion but as you say Zippo, maybe it reflects the opinion of 5,000 Lithuanian twelve year olds.

I believe that various cycling bodies and anti-car pressure groups regularly get their members and supporters to complete these surveys, so they can't be regarded as in any sense representative. Even if the IAM confined them to their own members they would be somewhat more meaningful.

I completed this one and would agree with your assessment - the way many of the questions were couched seemed somewhat leading and tendentious, and it's difficult for many people to vote in favour of something that sounds like they're supporting the killing of children :x

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 00:00 
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Thanks for the frank assessments. I have now sent along a few queries. Mostly we do agree on many issues, although their last guest speaker tried telling me on air that I was wrong 'that they don't tutor any of the Speed awareness Courses when I know that they do - he later backtracked on this statement and said that he was in a different department and didn't actually know !'. (They do run some of the courses.) Which then made all that he stated previously fairly questionable. Quite sad really, as I am sure many of them are very well meaning and try hard to help educate motorists. I do recommend them fairly often, they do help people think about driving and what & how they behave on the road, which is good.

If people hear of any more surveys - please - let me know on here or email etc ... that way I can keep a copy of the questionnaire and when they try and use the results can point out the flaws or benefits !

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