Safe Speed Forums

The one showing lots of everyday gadgets being powererd by ICE's suggesting that it is somehow absurd to use chemical fuels to power such devices

The irony of this is that a lot of effort is currently under way to do just that in order to provide greater power and improved endurance for portable gadgets. Whilst it is true that a lot of this effort is directed towards fuel cell technology I believe that micro ICE's are also on the cards.

It seems perverse that while the "Micro world" is moving towards chemical fuels for reasons of practicallity, the "Macro World" is being driven towards battery/electric systems, largely for reasons of political expediancy!

After all, just because Fossil Fuels may have their problems doesnt mean that liquid chemical fuels, and indeed ICE's, are not the best method of powering transport vehicles.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

And, conversely, just because electric vehicles have their problems that doesn't mean that electricity isn't the best method of powering transport vehicles. It is certainly accepted as the best means of powering , at one extreme, high speed trains and, at the other, milk floats.

Of course one could argue that electric cars are actually powered by chemical fuels since a battery or fuel cell uses a chemical reaction to generate the electricity

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I agree that electricity (battery or otherwise) may well be the best way of powering SOME transport vehicles! But (for various reasons) I am not convinced that it ticks (or ever will) the right boxes for "Social, Domestic and Pleasure"



And it is the the fact that thse ARE extemes that make both those applications practical. (Though I am not sure how either third rail or overhead electric traction systems would cope should we have a winter like 46/47! Back to that later perhaps)



ROFL! Thats a bit like comparing a jet engine with a Rocket! and actually confirms my point nicely! Rockets are only a practical propulsion system where there is no alternative Any aeronautics engineer who proposed using rocket engines on an atmospheric airliner would soon find himself out of a job, A fate that (Unless there is a breakthrough in Handwavium technology or the discovery of a large deposit of Unobtainium) should be shared by those who insist that the functionality of a "Mondeo" (as represntative of a typical 4 door family saloon) can be sensibly provided by a battery/electric vehicle.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I think we need to be careful about judging electric vehicles by the standards of today's offerings. We're likely to see (I think) quite substantial advances in battery technology in the next 5 years. I imagine that in the next 10, we'll have EVs with ranges comparable to conventional vehicles. I don't think charging will be as fast as currrent re-fuelling, but it will probably be a lot quicker than now. That could be offset some way by the cost of fuelling a conventional vehicle if fuel price trends continue as they are.

I've recently been messing around with some 3000F "Ultracapacitors" - wow!
Not as much energy density as a battery, but the power density is - wow! (not surprising as they were taken from the regenerative braking system of hybrid buses)
This is a promising avenue. One or two more leaps in this tech should see these being good enough as the main supply.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

If EVs become commonplace, the government will have to find some way of taxing their use to offset the loss of revenue from fuel duty.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Yes, and the congestion charge in London is a prime candidate to change its rules. Remember, it's a congestion charge and not an emissions levy. An EV takes up road space just the same as an IC vehicle.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

From observation , as temperature falls ,ice forms on the underside of overhead systems as witnessed by a lot of arcing ,and possibly a loss of volts( we used to use this as a gauge of how cold it was) .However as the overhead is at 25Kv -the loss is possibly low in percentage terms wrt power loss, but not so long ago NR was forced to install booster transformers ( basiclly auto transformers ) on longer sections to combat voltage drop - so perhaps when it's icy ,voltage drop might become a problem . I've never witnessed third rail in cold weather ,or fourth rail - those systems are kept well clear of .I should imagine that being of lower voltage( 650-750 v DC) ,any increase in contact resistance would cause problems .I know that there is a lot of arcing on underground trains -having seen it in non freezing conditions .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

But how would these systems cope with 6Ft snow drifts?? The more I think of it, the more I think that a 47 winter in (say) 2012/2013 would actually be a major catastrophie that would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of people (possibly much more!)! As a socioty I think we are far less able to cope with the consequences of an event like this than we were 60 odd years ago! As for me, I have my hole in the wall (Fireplace)! I have the ton of coal (and the 20 gallons of parafin for the lamps) And the generator, And the 500L of diesel. Overkill maybe but its relativley inexpensive overkill The fuel will keep, the generator and the diesel date back to the 80's (And when a local substation went pop last year resulting in a 2 day power cut I was the only person in the village who didnt notice! (Is there a smily for "Smug" )

Back to third rail.. I actually think third rail is a good concept, but it is definitly clunky! I (many years ago...) was once on a train that didnt seem to manage to go more than half a mile at a time (Train out of Waterloo to SW Surrey) without drawing out mahossive arcs that lit up the surrounding countryside like a Martian heat ray (appropriate since we were passing Woking at the time) At the same time the train decelerated abbruptly enough to throw one out of ones seats! Of course back then one just accepted this sort of thing as part of lifes great experiance, nowadays we would have hundreds of people running to their Lawyers complainig that there clothes had got creased!


Back to railways, I guess my question Is how do these systems cope with the snow drifts rather than the cold/ice. My own feeling is that the best Engine for deep snow is likly to be a steam one!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Third rail is something the planners/HSE mob are non to keen on - due to the possibilities of non trained public/kids getting on track . Although a tale from an old time rail bloke said that some old timers with arthitites used to let their raincoats brush the third rail if it was acting up -the slight shock was reported to jog the joints . Personally ,having had a few shocks of around that area -I'd not want to try it .
On the topic of steam - I used to go to school some miles away for a week at a time . On the way ,we'd stop to pick up a trackworkers son from the trackside house . In the days of steam , if frosty ,we'd struggle to get going again on the slight incline -making us late for school . Then they brought in Diesel - same slope , no problem -it took off as if there was no weather problem .
And from the old timer -the "wrong type of snow " was actually an accurate description - the normal snow fall is dry flaky snow that surrounds things ,but doesent intrude . The "wrong" type was a wetter type ,which got into equipment housing ,through vents and melted on the electrical kit - causing shorts galore .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Regarding cold temperatures and EVs, Lithium batteries will discharge happily down to about -20degC but are generally limited to 0degC for charging. As EVs generally use energy recovery systems, this is a problem. Batteries are thermally managed and not just at high temperatures. Battery energy is used to self-heat at very low temperatures.

We are looking at mobile systems for the rescue services to boost charge EVs which have "gone flat". This is the biggest fear of the EV user. However as only a handful of EVs have been sold (there are more charging points than EVs in the UK) there seems no rush!

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I imagine that this is likly to be for similar reasons as the diference between Auto and Manual transmission in icy conditions with a car. It is much easier to pull away gently with an auto. I Imagine that a Diesel/Electric (Did they ever make a "Direct Drive" Diesel loco??) would be much better at pulling away gently than a steam engine (Which frequently spun the wheels on starting even in optimum conditions...) However, it is more the depth of snow I am wondering about. I know that there are plenty of railways around the world that have to routinely cope with deep snow, but how many of them use electric traction? I recall seeing old film footage of steam trains ploughing through snow that practicaly went up to the smoke stack! Do the diesel electrics have the same capabillity??

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

Diesels - they were more accurately called diesel electrics - and snow -it'd have to be the right type for UK locos not to fail . .
Part of the adhesion problems was down to the steamers not having sandboxes ,and the extra weight etc. Plus as you said - deisel electric- more smooth transfer of power to wheels .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I thought it was the other way round...

IE The "Right" kind is wet sticky stuff that tends to stay where it falls. The "Wrong" kind is the dry powdery stuff that gets blown inside motors and switch gear where it Then melts causing all kinds of havok!

I thought it was most amusing a couple of years back when an ultramodern, Hi-tech (And no doubt very expensive) eurostar that had succumbed to the (Really very trivial, compared to what I remember from the 60's) snow had to be rescued by the newly completed Tornedo..

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I see Apple have put in a patent application for 'Fuel Cell System to Power a Portable Computing Device'

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57347294-54/apple-fuel-cell-patent-applications-envision-weeks-without-refueling/

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You only need two tools - WD40 and duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD40. If it moves and it shouldn't, use duct tape. :0)

You could be right ,Dusty - I heard this expalnation from a seniour rail engineer many years ago ,and I could have got it wrong ,from memory . ( Always knew I'd spent too long on that job putting a phone system itot the Altzheimers society offices

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on