Safe Speed Forums

Well, when I last looked at the Highway Code (which was about 2 mins ago) on the web:



Or put another way, it says that the speed limit was the absolute maximum and should be adjusted downwards depending on prevailing conditions.

Your post says suggests that it a speed limit is an advisory limit that can be adjusted upwards depending on driver ability.

To my mind reading above, speed limits are set by traffic planners with respect to perfect conditions. If conditions are less than perfect then drive slower than the limit.

Not too much confusion there I hope?

It's not about confusion or about what the law says.

The job of policy concerns what real people do in the real world and how to help them do it more safely.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Paul,

You're a good man to reply to my trolling. I may not agree with what you're saying, but life would be much more boring without you.

I've got to go and pick up the kids now as the wife's away. I'll speak to you on Monday.

Have a great weekend

EB

I don't have time. Please deal with the central points in the future, and revist old stuff if you have time.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Get back in your cage, Oscar

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I stole this .sig

Drivers pick their own speeds all the time, and thank God they do. Just imagine if everybody drove at 30mph everywhere, all the time, regardless of how many children were playing in the road etc.
We trust drivers all the time to set appropriate speeds for conditions, but somehow don't trust them if that chosen speed just happens to be a little over the limit. How does that work then?



And, strangely enough, they've judged that 'safe speed' to be 30mph virtually everywhere in built-up and semi-built-up areas - despite huge differences in road layouts, hazards, camber, entrances etc.
Pull the other one.
Speed limits used to be set by traffic engineers according to 85th percentile speeds. Nowdays they're set by council busybodies who don't have a clue about traffic engineering. I've lost count of the number of safe NSL roads which have been reduced to 50, 40 or even 30mph in the last few years.
If you believe that speed limits are set according to sound engineering principles, then you probably believe in the easter bunny as well.



If that's really your attitude towards driving, then I suggest that you stop driving before you kill someone.

Cheers
Peter

In more and more cases we are having these limits decided by traffic planners who do not even drive and now vociferous local councillors with simplistic speed kills beliefs.

Their attitude seems to be reduce the speed limit to the safest level for the worst driver in the worst conditions.

In Northop, Flintshire a recent accident where a woman hit an electricity pole on a country NSL after she went off on a bend has led to a predictable local kneejerk campaign to get the whole length reduced to 40 mile/h. Fortunately she was unhurt but a number of residents were inconvenienced by losing the electricity. People are so seduced by the whole 'speed kills' nonsense that few seem to see that the accident on a tight off cambered bend with mud on the road would have happened at below the 40 limit. What is needed here to avoid the fairly frequent repeat accidents is clear signage, relaying the road, proper drainage or even driver education. But those cost money and the local camera parasites Arrive Alive are rubbing their hands anticipating the revenue from a long stretch of otherwise good road at an artificially low limit. This has happened time and time again. As soon as the signs go up the Talivans appear.

Nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity

A speed limit is only an absolute legal maximum, it is not in any meaningful sense a physical or safety maximum.


A growing number of speed limits are set for political reasons, often against the advice of professional traffic planners. If all speed limits were set according to the official government guidelines contained in DoT Circular Roads 1/93 we would have much less of a problem.

The 70 mph motorway limit was originally set by a process little more sophisticated than choosing a number that happened to be just below the maximum speed of typical family cars of the time. Most large European countries have a motorway limit of 130 kph or 81 mph (which is also the recommended limit on derestricted German motorways). This suggests that those who have given serious thought to the issue have reached a different conclusion to the UK legislators. Many knowledgeable people such as senior traffic police officers and the IAM support an 80 mph limit on rural motorways in this country.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I lived in Munich for 8 years up to 1994. As I am sure you are aware, Germany has less yobbos than we do. Germans in general are law abiding, regular people, much more so than Brits, anyway. There is less chaos there – things work. They are much more able to get with the programme (which has its downsides as well).

I don't think we can introduce their system here because many brits don't have the mental discipline to measure up to it. It would be instant carnage as yobbos race up down at murderous speeds in 200 horsepower cars! I'm not saying it would never be possible to sort out the British, but it is going to take a long time and a lot of ASBOs![/quote]


I don't agree. There might appear to be 'less chaos' in German society (especially in very conservative and law-abiding Bayern) from the outside but there's still a lot of crime and a fair amount of disorder. Try living in Berlin in 2005. Also rude, aggressive driving is frequently seen, but tends to be accompanied by a high degree of real skill and ability. This, surely, is to do with driver training and insistence on high standards, and can be achieved anywhere where the will and commitment exists. It's got nothing to do with 'national characteristics.'

What exactly, on an empty or very quiet motorway, constitutes 'murderous speeds'? This sounds like 'safety camera partnership' spin-talk. I also think that many would take issue with the assertion that 'many brits don't have the mental discipline to measure up to it.' What????

Germany, by the way, is full of millions of Brits, Italians, Russians, Poles, Bosnians, Turks, Arabs, Greeks, Romanians, Africans of every description... They all drive at 180kph on the autobahns every day in perfect safety. I think the difference between there and some other jurisdictions is simply enlightened road safety policy and the concentration of enforcement on the right things, nothing more.

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'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

Er yes Peter, but the point EB was making is that the legal maximum is what we are currently obliged to to stick to, it's non-negotiable whilst we are driving on the UK's roads. Saying it's only a legal maximum is like arguing that copyright theft is only wrong because there is a law aganist it.
What we'd actually like to see, a situation where the circumstances and hence safe maximum is taken into consideration, is something completely different.

That may be true - but with 57% of cars exceeding the 70mph limit on motorways (latest DfT figure)(for example) - it isn't very realistic is it? We have to work with the real world and real people. The law may be idealised (perfect / absolute / whatever) but people are not.

The question remains: What are we going to do to make the roads safer?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No, but that is only what you (and to a certain extent I) think. The fact remains that according to the HC, 70mph is the legal motorway maximum, unrealistic or not.

Don't really want to take exception to your remarks, but, (BIG BUT)
3 points -

1 - try driving on M6/M1( in midlands) these days - 70 is the speed of mr flatcap.By common consent ( and it is high time politicians got out of their bathchairs and realised it) 70 is the mininum speed for Lane 2. Lane 3 - don't know haven't caught up with mr salesman yet.
2 -The law does not acknowledge that some drivers can drive safely at higher speeds - our guardians of the road - trafpols can and do acknowledge this fact.
3- if 57% of cars exceeding speed limit - is this limit realistic????

However this sort of thinking is quite comon these days - New Labour does not encourage competition.We should just plod along at the speed of a snail, however our ability and when accidents occur ( as they will due to boredom) blame it on anything else but policy.

Which basically said the same as what Paul said, only using more words.

As I said...What we'd like to see and how it reflects reality, vs what the statute currently permits.

Rigpig - thanks - nice to see we're not at loggerheads

True - but what are we going to do about it?

1) Put every cop in the land on motorways nicking speeders?

2) Ignore it completely?

3) Enforce at random with technology?

4) Enforce intelligently when to do so serves the public interest? (and turn a blind eye otherwise)

Any other ideas? Someone has to choose and the authorities are choosing wrongly.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yes, but there is an implication in such statements by EB and also in the past by Basingwerk that it is a maximum in a wider sense than that of legality, that it is, perhaps, a "responsibility maximum".

And, given that virtually all drivers routinely exceed speed limits, we have to recognise that they are, by their inherent nature, somewhat different from laws such as those against theft.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

We should campaign to change it so that 4) becomes the norm.
The problem is, whether the authorities are choosing wrongly or not, they currently hold the legal high ground. Holding the moral/safe high ground may lead to victory in the long run, but encouraging the concept of safe maximum over legal maximum in the meantime is verging on encouraging peolple to break the law.
Whether the authorities are right or not, sending out messages encouraging behaviour that contradicts their mandate is effectively saying "I'm relieving them of command, listen to me now".

I don't agree Peter. EB quite clearly stated that the maximum should be lowered if circumstances dictate. This suggests a responsiblity variance on the part of individuals (rather than a maximum).

Quote from Rigpig- "We should campaign to change it so that 4) becomes the norm.
The problem is, whether the authorities are choosing wrongly or not, they currently hold the legal high ground. Holding the moral/safe high ground may lead to victory in the long run, but choosing the path of safe maximum in the meantime is verging on encouraging peolple to break the law.
And the latter is a credibility buster if ever there was one."

I agree with you on some points , only some. Untill the motoring public uses its clout the "benchdrivers" and "sofa drivers" will win.
Read the history of how the leftwingers gained control of the unions in the 60's - because of apathy by the members- today we have that apathy by motorists. We all have a voice at election time, we all have a vote - either use it or shut up, i'll be using mine and trying to influence folks to do the same - WILL YOU