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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 15:03 
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The Times is running a campaign to improve the safety of cycling in the U.K. This follows one of their journalists being seriously injured in an accident with a lorry.

They published a multipoint covenant for motorists and local authorities to sign up to which encourages junction design improvements, additional cycle lanes and lorries to be fitted with proximity warning systems to bleep if cyclists are coming up their nearsides in the blind spot.

Interestingly, the letters page today is full of communications supporting this cause but pointing out that no part of the covenant makes any demands on cyclists themselves to improve safety. These was exactly my thoughts on reading the campaign pages.

The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others. Cyclists need to be trained (for example, not to go up the inside of trucks at traffic lights) and licensed so that they can be identified if accidents occur.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 02:54 
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Found this to explain more ... The Times hereand here Tweet link
The Times wrote:
Cities Fit For Cycling
In November, Times journalist Mary Bowers was just yards from arriving at work on her bike when she was hit by a lorry. Mary, 27, is still not conscious and is making a slow recovery in hospital.
Tragically, such an accident is far from rare. More than 27,000 cyclists have been killed or seriously injured on British streets in the past 10 years.

On the urban roads of Britain today cyclists need to be fit for cities. Cycling should be both safe and pleasurable. Ministers, mayors and local authorities must build cities that are fit for cycling.

The Times has launched a public campaign and 8-point manifesto calling for cities to be made fit for cyclists:

1) Trucks entering a city centre should be required by law to fit sensors, audible truck-turning alarms, extra mirrors and safety bars to stop cyclists being thrown under the wheels.
2) The 500 most dangerous road junctions must be identified, redesigned or fitted with priority traffic lights for cyclists and Trixi mirrors that allow lorry drivers to see cyclists on their near-side.
3) A national audit of cycling to find out how many people cycle in Britain and how cyclists are killed or injured should be held to underpin effective cycle safety.
4) Two per cent of the Highways Agency budget should be earmarked for next generation cycle routes, providing £100 million a year towards world-class cycling infrastructure. Each year cities should be graded on the quality of cycling provision.
5) The training of cyclists and drivers must improve and cycle safety should become a core part of the driving test.
6) 20mph should become the default speed limit in residential areas where there are no cycle lanes.
7) Businesses should be invited to sponsor cycleways and cycling super-highways, mirroring the Barclays-backed bicycle hire scheme in London.
8) Every city, even those without an elected mayor, should appoint a cycling commissioner to push home reforms.
Cannot say that I agree with it all and to sign up would imply that you do. I do agree with some of the principals and disagree with others:
1) Hauliers have enough on their plate and a reminder to look ought to work but how about funding the mirrors and are given to lorries. All the points speak of big bully tactics than a community all pulling together. That misses a good opportunity.
This would be better and obtain more approval, than further 'demands' on an already struggling industry (to large extents).
(It also implies that if you don't find the money then you can't care and that isn't right in principal, as if you introduce a new rule making it one that people want to help with than told to do, ought to be the aim - encouragement not enforcement.
2) Why only 500 ? Why limit a survey surely all junctions that have a problem need to have proper engineering /design solutions.
And why then prioritise cyclists at traffic lights ? I managed for years in London and I tried very hard to ensure of my safety. This idea that lights should favour one road user over another is segregating road users and we need less of that and an overall responsible attitude that we are all people that need to work together. All lights apply to everyone and lets not complicate it further. Does this mean that we have a light sequence for bikes then buses then taxis then cars ? Who defines the hierarchy ?
3) Tweaks to current road safety research will produce this information and likely cost a lot less as an add on than a whole new set of research data. Surely bike sales will help to indicate how many people cycle and considering all the data that the HMRC must hold one would think they ought to have this data already. Agree totally that by understanding how the incidents occur we can better put in place policies that may help to prevent further injury to people and property.
4) Why 2% and why 'next generation cycle routes, whatever that is ? Why not use some of it to provide 'people routes' for everyone to travel (horse-riders, cyclists, walkers etc etc) it just needs to be basic good quality surface. We haven't got the luxury to spend much - we are not well off but in serious debt. So basic will just have to do and if communities want more then why not contribute time and effort to help do their 'stretch' if they want more than a simple route. We do not 'need' targets and numbers to tell us a place has a cycle route, we just need it add to SatNavs and a logical map or guide probably supplied through a website that all cycling clubs etc can contribute to.
5) I approve of good quality training as it can help everyone to learn and understand. I'd like to know too what is wrong that we have potentially become so intolerant of others. This needs to understand the psychology too.
6) I cannot agree to this and even if a very few areas may benefit I would never blindly approve of this and it makes no real sense. I am quite sure that if some of the enforcement techniques are approved over the next 5 years, then many people will find themselves criminalised when going a little over 20mph, when no one is around and no danger has been created. The rules will become (as they already are) disrespected. What about the cyclists that have no front or rear or either lights they are a potential danger too.
7) On the face of this, it maybe good but is there room for 'super-highways'. What new rules will be needed to ensure all cyclists will know how to behave in the safest manner? Who will be around to enforce it ? Or will a drone run up and down the lanes ?
8) Waste of public money - as we only need a government approval and demand to the local Councils, and it is covered. That way the National approach makes it all uniform and simple than each individual area creating their own route type and signs and layouts.
Why not just have the local cycling groups join forces, and meet with the local council engineers directly to show progress although even that is un-necessary if central Gov have laid down the law on a route system. I am also sure that Company sponsoring -say by Giant, Scott should help improve the number of routes. Old railway lines have already been converted and that is great and fun but for all not just cyclists.

What they are really doing is a cycle road network. Not a bad idea but I think where possible first, we should always improve the existing roads to allow cyclists to travel confidently and safely. Even sweeping the roads to the very edges would help.
I do agree that there will be local issues but nothing that local Councils can't cope with. If councils are so unwieldy then that needs to be directly addressed and improved.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 19:31 
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malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.


Couldn't agree more.

Being in the right isn't much use if you're dead.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 22:26 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.


Couldn't agree more.

Being in the right isn't much use if you're dead.

Problem - without training and education ,those who insist on their rights over their own personal safety have nothing to guide them as to the pssibility of errors and the consequences .

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 00:11 
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botach wrote:
Problem - without training and education ,those who insist on their rights over their own personal safety have nothing to guide them as to the pssibility of errors and the consequences .

I dunno, common sense is usually a good guide. In fact the problems often arise when education as to people's "rights" is allowed to take precedence over common sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 08:53 
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Yesterday in the Times, someone wrote that, effectively, cyclists should be able to ignore the law of the road if they judged that their safety was enhanced by so doing. Why should this not apply to all road users?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 16:37 
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PeterE wrote:
botach wrote:
Problem - without training and education ,those who insist on their rights over their own personal safety have nothing to guide them as to the pssibility of errors and the consequences .

I dunno, common sense is usually a good guide. In fact the problems often arise when education as to people's "rights" is allowed to take precedence over common sense.



I Dunno -to those with no concept of common sense , training and education is a good start .

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 17:07 
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malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others. Cyclists need to be trained (for example, not to go up the inside of trucks at traffic lights) and licensed so that they can be identified if accidents occur.
Couldn’t agree with you more Malcolm but the hairs on the back of my neck went up on your last point if I’m honest.

A licence means a licence fee. A licence fee is “just to cover the cost of the licence and admin you understand”. Once we have got used to the idea and agree with it in principle the licence fee then goes up, “to keep pace with the cost of inflation etc.”. And before you know where you are you are obliged to have an MOT, insurance, tax – all of which needs to be paid for by someone.

Now I’ve always held very dear the notion that if you are completely down-and-out the last bastion of useful, free, transport is, and always has been, the humble push bike. When I was unemployed once in my life and had not two pennies to rub together I wouldn’t have been able to see my family and friends were it not for an old cronk I put together. I even put a seat and footrest on it to pick my daughter up and go around to see my sister. (I must find a picture of that).

Not saying your wrong Malc and I can see the sense, but it would be a sad day for me if it did come to that. Maybe I worry about the slippery slope too much?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 17:56 
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Although I am sympathetic to your general argument, what would you think if I applied it to a car driver?

I can't afford to maintain my car properly but it is my only way of seeing my family. I can't afford to make sure it's safe, get an MOT, insurance and VED but I'm going to use it anyway. Would that be OK?

The last bastion of free transport is walking. There is a price to pay for having mechanised transport. We should all expect other road users to be operating safe equipment, be competent and have insurance for those little mishaps. It's not a lot to ask really.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 00:57 
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malcolmw wrote:
The last bastion of free transport is walking.


But, by your argument, why should walkers be allowed to roam the roads unlicensed, without means of identification or insurance in case they cause an accident.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:06 
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malcolmw wrote:
Although I am sympathetic to your general argument, what would you think if I applied it to a car driver?

I can't afford to maintain my car properly but it is my only way of seeing my family. I can't afford to make sure it's safe, get an MOT, insurance and VED but I'm going to use it anyway. Would that be OK?

The last bastion of free transport is walking. There is a price to pay for having mechanised transport. We should all expect other road users to be operating safe equipment, be competent and have insurance for those little mishaps. It's not a lot to ask really.
I did consider this as a rebuttal and it’s a fair point of course. But, in all seriousness, I do think it’s going down the slippery slope.

As proponents here on this Board for training and education over legislation where possible, (hope that’s fair to say?), bring back or make it mandatory for children to take cycling proficiency tests and inculcate responsibility for ones own actions from an early age . I see this morning that ‘they’ are talking about getting kids to learn about driving at school for instance, (separate thread perhaps). Why not, then, with cycling? :)

I don’t see it as a big problem TBH, at least not where I live although I’m sure weepej would have a different view from the London perspective. I hear cyclists down there are a bit mad on the roads, especially at junctions. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 21:17 
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malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.



Bit of a fallacy in that statement. If you are responsible for your own safety and that of others, by definition you are not wholly responsible for your own safety, others are too...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 21:42 
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weepej wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.



Bit of a fallacy in that statement. If you are responsible for your own safety and that of others, by definition you are not wholly responsible for your own safety, others are too...

And the first law of weepism is ........................

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 22:18 
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weepej wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.

Bit of a fallacy in that statement. If you are responsible for your own safety and that of others, by definition you are not wholly responsible for your own safety, others are too...

Please can you explain exactly what was inherently fallacious about Malcolm's statement? I can't see how the logic of your statement can be resolved.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 21:13 
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weepej wrote:
malcolmw wrote:
The first principle of safety is that YOU are responsible for your own safety and those of others.

Bit of a fallacy in that statement. If you are responsible for your own safety and that of others, by definition you are not wholly responsible for your own safety, others are too...

In your mind you seem to have added the word "wholly" to my original statement.

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