Safe Speed Forums

According to the blurb mine has ABS, DSC/CBC and EBA - any advance?

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You da man!

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Speed camera policy Kills

The only driver aid my car has is ABS and that's the way I like it.

When the roads are slippery (rain after long dry spell) I have so much fun without all those pesky traction/stability controls.

There's nothing quite like watching where you are going through the side window, even if only in first/second gear at low speed.

Note: Before I get jumped on , no cars, cyclists, pedestrians, kids about.....

Another Note: The nice thing about practice is that when the thing you are practicing happens unexpectedly it's no big deal.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

a succinct description JT.

It is wheel slip that ABS responds to, true the optuimum slip will vary with the tyre which is why (amongst other reasons) most cars only come with a handful of approved tyres.

ABS, TC, CBC, ESP, MSR, ESP+, EBA, HBA, HBB, AutoP, ECD
there are more on the way but i'm not sure they're in production on anything at present.

oh and i would argue that the performance of current (new) ABS systems is close to identical, ABS is pretty much known technology, everyone knows how to do it and everyone does it in pretty much the same way.

the proliferation of additional features & TLAs to see that ABS suppliers can no longer use ABS performance alone to sell their products to the manufacturers.

Its also very worrying to me, that learner drivers are commonly being taught to drive cars with ABS systems. How can they ever hope to learn any concept of skid control if they have never approached the limits of the tyres. In some respects, perhaps ABS is a BAD THING, as drivers become accustomed to it, and rely on it to reduce their stopping distances.

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"Are you sh**ing me?"
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quite.... it worried me that my instinct was just to nail the pedal.. but i was aware of what i was expecting when i did it.

more worryingly if you have a trawl round the web (american sites usually) you'll find some videos etc teaching people how to use abs i.e. dont take your foot back off the pedal thinking its broken.

another case in point is my mother in law who tells me it taker her a while to get used to driving my her husbands car because its got ABS. (1. i'm fairly sure her normal car has ABS anyway 2. frightening though her driving is i'm fairly sure she doesnt make use of her abs on a regular basis!)

but then again there is a 'gentlemans agreement' in the car industry to fit ABS as standard to all new vehicles, this was done to delay threatened legislation to the same effect. so its possible new drivers will
never encounter a car without ABS.

There is another consideration in the declutch / don't declutch debate.

If you don't initially declutch when making an emergency stop, the point at which you do so later can have an effect on your overall braking performance. I was taught to declutch at the last moment before becoming stationary, and in my experience declutching earlier than this point i.e. part way through braking can confuse an ABS system, potentially causing you to lock up as the removal of engine braking suddenly reduces the rate of decelleration.

I would say the "two foot panic" method in an ABS-equipped vehicle is overall the best method to match a human's instinctive reaction to a sudden hazard that presents itself in front of them - it matters less what you then do in the subsequent second(s) of blind panic, the conditions are nice and predictable for the ABS system, and it means the engine shouldn't stall suddenly taking away your power steering!

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Chris

I do have to say that i have never had to 'emergency' brake in my private cars since being taught to drive to The System. Yet before that it did happen. It's amazing what proffessional driver training can do.

Just goes to prove - EVERY driver should get a better standard of instruction than is the norm at present!
It never ceases to amaze me that so many drivers rely on their brakes to slow down!
I know driving a diesel gives me an edge because of the engine braking effect, but I seem to be able to drive the most tortuous of roads, in traffic without having to even "trail" the brakes, while the cars in front light up their brakelights at every deviation or hazard in the road, because they were not prepared.
Often my only reason for using the pedal is to use my lights to warn the car behind that we are slowing quicker than he might have allowed for!

However, I have driven several vehicles with ABS, and still think all were different in terms of response, and my present vehicle takes over far too quickly and obviously, especially if a novice driver were to be in my seat.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

ABS units vary massively with the age of the car and design. Even within a single manufacturers model the variation can be immense as is the consequence if it kicking in.

There have been various discussions on Scoobynet about exactly this for Subaru Imprezas. The earliest ones and high-performance specials don't have it at all (not good for rallying), then a basic single channel one was introduced and now it is a fully independent 4 channel system with electronic brakeforce distribution. The conversations were about braking when tring to creep (1 or 2 mph) down an icy slope with a T-junction at the bottom.

If you had the basic single channel setup it didn't cope with this situation at all well, as a single wheel lock caused all wheels to unlock, and because it detected this situation almost immediately it effectively prevented the driver from applying any braking at all. The solutions for drivers with that generation of car were a) don't drive it if it is snow or ice, or b) remove the fuse for the ABS controller thus disabling ABS and allowing manual control. So even within visually identical cars the ABS system can vary widely. The later ABS/EBD cars are amongst the best on the road, although it is disconcerting to feel the back wheels squirming while the fronts haven't locked yet.

My personal opinion is that you shouldn't need to brake hard except in the most exceptional circumstances. I normally drive hundreds of motorway miles without touching the brakes at all - simply leave a sensible gap, read the traffic in front of the car in-front, and lift off throttle when necessary. If everybody did this, then the concertina effect wouldn't exist.

Personally I spent some time doing extra driver education, and it didn't cost me anything except a little time and effort. I went down the local library and read some books about advanced driving techniques in particular "Roadcraft". It wasn't hard, it cost nothing, and it improved the way I thought about driving no-end. The other important thing to do, is to occasionally find a quiet bit of road or empty car park, and get to know how your car reacts when you do need to push things.

A valid point in itself Never underestimate the stupidity of other people though, whilst with proper training you should be able to avoid most trouble, you should always be prepared to stop effectively should the need arise.



A nice start would be if people could even drive to the basic standard they are instructed in to begin with... Maybe some kind of compulsory advanced instruction could help to an extent, but standards will continue to slip until enforcement improves. Sadly it seems at the moment you can drive as badly as you like, and you will only get your collar felt if you cause an accident or speed past a camera

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Chris

I don't want to tempt fate, but I don't think I've ever had to emergency brake in a real emergency. Am I 'lucky' or is this good planning when I'm driving???

Anyway, as a motorcyclist originally, I learnt to ride on the gearbox. This is how I drive my car around. I seldom use the brakes at all - I always try to be in the right gear at the right time.

The last car I owned (before this one) was a Nissan Sunny. I bought is 2nd hand with 40,000 miles on the clock. When I sold it, it had past 122,000 miles and I had never had to change the brake pads!!!!

When I look at my car's front wheels, they aren't much dirtier than the real wheels (also with pads), nor are the tyres 'feathered' as they wear and I tend to get 30,000 miles out of each set before I change them.

When I buy a car I look for this in the one being scrutinised. Feathered tyres and dirty front wheels are indicative (IMHO) of heavy accelerating / braking.

surely you mean spirited driving

I think this raises an issue worthy of a new topic. I'll make a new post and add the link back in here.

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2860

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Same here Paul, our car has covered nigh on 50K since we have had it and both the front & rear pads are nowhere near the wear limit yet.
Like you, my first taste of the road was 2 wheels and I have a tendancy to "play" the gearbox wherever I ride or drive these days.

As for having to perform an emergency stop, the only 2 that I still remember with clarity are the ones I was required to perform on both driving tests which took place 23 years ago now.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Actually is suprising how many new cars/vans are not equppied with ABS - my work's 2004 Kangoo vans don't. It's deadly important to know how to cadence brake in those things, the wheels lock up far too easily and I'm well practiced with driving a non-ABS vehicle so know to avoid the slam-on panic reaction. The 2005 Trafic we have does, but was an option so what moment of amazing clarity and forethought caused the M.D. to tick the option box I don't know! Quite a number of small hatch's(popular for new drivers) only have ABS as an option.