Safe Speed Forums

Yes. People will try and experiment. Look - we have enough problems with booze and tobacco which are legal. USA may have got rid of organised crime regarding booze - but we have problems with abuse of drink. We will have same problems with drug abuse and the two together will mean IG has even more public behaviour problems ot cope with - and I may be dealing with more drug induced ailments. These drugs affect immune system after a while - and addicts are more prone to virus than anyon else.



Fortunately my kids' school has automatic expulsion policy for dealing.

But if they are so easily obtainable now whilst illegal... how much easier

pogo wrote:

pogo wrote:

I, like the majority of folk, am not a drugs user (other than alcohol), not because I can't obtain drugs, it's just that I don't want them - not my scene.

Likewise... never been my scene ever. Perhaps because of my training and knowledge.. or perhaps because I have a life.

pogo wrote:

From what I read and hear, a vast amount of the "crime" around drug use is not the drug use per se, it's the crime that addicts commit in order to finance an expensive habit - I've heard figures bandied around like 90% of all "minor" crime - housebreaking, mugging, prostitution, theft from cars etc - is "drug related". Surely, if a user can buy a consistent and pure dose of their preferred drug at something like its cost price plus a small percentage from their local chemist, they wouldn't have the need to find so much money and thus the related crime would go down.

In theory...

Ijn practice... Swiss are finding out a different story. They tried prescription and addict wanted more and commited crimes to get it.

Bit like my wife (and she was in the tolerance devlopment stage) but I removed the pills and she is the scientist who knows how to make them...

But it would not be a cost price... high tax would be imposed in a bid to deter... or we would fund their habit indirectly - and I do not care how people post on here - bottom line - if you were asked to pay more tax to fund drug habits - you would NOT vote for it! Crikey - people do not vote for party who plans to hike up tax for things that matter - like education, current NHS and police numbers... so likelihood they'd vote for anything which means they pay for another's totally selfish pleasure .....

pogo wrote:

I see added advantages in that it [i]should drive the illegal supply trade out of business, as long as the "tax it to breaking point" lobby can be kept under control, and the massive amounts of money spent at present on the utterly ineffective "war on drugs" could be channelled into proper education and support.

But .... they will tax drug high or tax all of us high to pay for treatment.

They will not invest in proper road safety initiatives and education standards have been dumbed dwon to nonsense levels as well.....we are thinking of increasing basic training for medics... despite that hype about making us eligible to be consultants earlier after qualifying ...

Of course - I want to see better education about drug use, safe sex, viral disease awareness, road safety .. but it costs money and we ain't prepared to pay the tax!

And even if we do... it gets squandered on phony wars, micky mouse jobs for Tony boys, prat quangoes. phony targets for NHS, BiBs and teachers....and MP expenses.....

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It surprises me whenever I have the "legalise drugs debate" how often the same solutions are trotted out. I.e. the current situation isn't working, so we either go one way and legalise, or the other way and impose extreme punishments (I think someone mentioned Capital Punishment) for those caught using, dealing etc... It seems so simple!

Unfortunately one group will oppose one route as much as the other will support it, so we end up in the current stalemate, whereby the only winner is the criminal gangs operating these outfits. I doubt whether the growers of the opium poppies get a decent profit (now there's an idea, Fairtrade Heroin! sorry, off on a tangent).

Anyway, I guess it's up to each of us which camp we fall into, I think I'd go for the "Do what you will, but harm no-one" camp. But that's just me, and the beauty of countries like this is that we have the opportunity to disagree with each other!

So thanks for enlightening me with your opinions and well structured arguments! I could really do with a pint now...

Hi guys.

Been away for a couple of days, and good to read the quality of some of the intelligent and well-thought out contributions to this debate - all started, indirectly, by Brunstrom. So every cloud has...

To 'In Gear', 'Mad Moggie' et al: please address these basic issues.

This debate is not really about the health effects of narcotics (which description in any case covers a very broad range of different substances, many far less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, some arguably more so), or whether or not they are a 'good' or 'bad' thing. It's about the issue of the demonstrably disastrous effects of legal prohibition over the past 40 years, and in the light of this, what strategy/policy might be adopted which could improve the situation, or at least might have the net effect of being overall less damaging to society as a whole.

As previously admitted, Brunstrom is not the only senior BiB to advocate legalization of narcotics - though most go public about their views once they have left the force. Eddie Ellison, former head of the DS at Scotland Yard, made a thought-provoking and convincing case for full legalization on Channel 4 last Saturday evening. This is a man with years of career experience trying to enforce the laws against illegal narcotics, who believes the 'war on drugs' never can, and never will, be won, and not to admit this is to deceive the public. He's right, of course.

So there is an issue of principle, about personal freedom - yes, even to kill yourself if you like. None of us are immortal (how many 200-year old people do you know, exactly?) and as long as you don't affect anyone else, it's your right. This is - or should be - inviolable (OK this is a red herring - most suicides take prescription drugs, or jump in fromt of trains).

The second issue is a pragmatic one. Since prohibition is such an unmitigated catastrophe, what else can be done which might work better? There are only two options:

1. Full legalization, with controlled distribution and a free market in the supply. Prices must be kept low, at production cost plus distribution cost plus normal operating margins. Some of you seem to be of the opinion that this might increase usage. It might, but probably not by much. However, on the positive side it would almost certainly reduce crime by half, possibly more. It would make the streets safer. It would take the narcotics industry out of the hands of criminals, to whom we now hand it on a plate. it would free up billions to spend and invest in other worthwhile areas. It would ensure that those who do want to take narcs can do so safely, with quality, uncorrupted product whose manufacture is controlled and monitored properly, as is the case with prescription drugs.

It doesn't have any down side, except perhaps a possible increase in number of users. No-one knows what this might be, and any claims are just speculative. We haven't tried it yet. My guess is that a lot of people, like me, would try everything once or twice, then leave them behind and move on with their lives. This is exactly what I did, 30 years ago. The advantage I have is that I can talk with some authority about the effects some substances have on the body and perception, because I have personally taken them, so I know. Once or twice with most substances is enough. If everything was legally available, I personally wouldn't use any of them from experience, and I can't be unique. So any argument of 'if it was legal, there would be an explosion of addicts...' just does not wash with me.


2. The second option was suggested by one of the BiBs (sorry I forget who, without trawling back thru' the thread) and seems to ba favoured by Rigpig. This is effectively to keep prohibition, but with draconian enforcement. There are 2 problems with this.

Singapore and Malaysia, and other Asian countries, have draconian drug laws, with mandatory execution for possession of even moderate amounts of marijuana. Don't even think that an appeal against your death sentence in Singapore has any chance of success if convicted of possession of anything stronger. There is still drug use, and a drug trade, in Singapore and Malaysia - though it's not so widespread as here. So this approach doesn't really work.

The second problem with this is the prevailing political climate in the West. Can you really see legislation for mandatory death sentences for narcotic possession being passed and enforced here? Come on. Be realistic.


TAXATION

The issue of taxation needs to be addressed, and this really needs to be understood. Some people have said i.e. 'if legalised, we would have to tax it to deter use, so this would keep crime high as people would still steal to get the money to buy...'

Plase, please try and use your brains on this. I'm not intending to be patronising or anything but you really, really need to grasp this.

This is the way it works.

1. High taxation of addictive or habit-forming substances NEVER, EVER DETERS OR REDUCES USE. I repeat, HIGH TAXATION OF ADDICTIVE OR HABIT-FORMING SUBSTANCES NEVER, EVER, EVER DETERS USE. As far as I am aware, there is not one single example of deterrence by taxation of the use of addictive substances in human history. Correct me if you can find one.

Right, now we've understood that, these would be the ACTUAL effects of high taxation.

2. If the government artificially inflates the price of drugs with taxation, this would cause illegal channels of supply not only to survive, but to prosper and vigorously compete with the official channels. This is an inviolable law of economics. Since the substances themselves are legal, but prices have been pushed artificially high by taxation, the opportunity for big profits will attract new illegal channels to open, to bypass the tax.

3. The government fixes the market to keep prices high = no benefit yield in crime reductions, which you will see if prices are allowed to sink to proper market levels. People will still have to steal to buy.


High taxation of narcotics, if legalised = AN ABSOLUTE, UNMITIGATED DISASTER. You might as well leave things as they are, which is at least a booming, thriving (though illegal) market where the government is not actually guaranteeing high profits for illegal suppliers.


THE POLICY OF PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK, HAS NEVER WORKED AND NEVER WILL WORK. It - the POLICY, not the substances themselves - is making all our lives hell, and has to change.

Think about it!!!!!

That's all for now.

Responses appreciated.

_________________
'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

Hehehe - more of a Tai Chi man myself - just about to take up aikido as well.



How can Alice Cooper be wrong?



Haven't driven on a derestricted A-bahn myself, but I have hidden in the footwell, clawing at the dash and shrieking like a cheerleader when an old flame of mine was doing a ton on one in her Clio...



Hehehe - I'd build them the sodding computer for nothing just so I didn't have to go round Tesco! As someone who was helped out at Uni, don't worry... by that stage we've learned to be grateful.





Not necessarily in my experience. The numpties in the Civil Service probably will tax the stuff too high though. :/

I can't see it being much more than they tax cigarettes these days though.



We do this already with alcohol - and I don't think that's going to stop any time soon.



True, and that houseman of yours was damn lucky to have such an understanding dude at his back. However, just about everything we put in our bodies has such an effect.




Whereas I am for, because I believe that people should be allowed to make their own choices. Limiting those choices to alcohol and nicotine, which are two of the more nasty and insidious drugs around IMO, especially in terms of dependency - just seems to be foolish.



Sounds like you've got some Darwin Award candidates there...



Not when Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre are effectively in charge of forming public opinion in this country, you don't.




I'll admit I can count the number of (thankfully former) heroin addicts that I know or have known on my fingers, but their use certainly didn't escalate once they were hooked. I guess is depends on the person. I'd love to see some study done on addictive personalities, because I think that is key here.



This is where our experiences differ - I'm a Londoner, so the guys I knew didn't drive as a rule. In fact one did, but never under the influence.

What do you do though - bang them up (my gut reaction) or get them treatment and driver's ed? The problem with banging them up is that you can almost guarantee that their habit will bring them into contact with some real hardcore wrong'uns and they get even further down the slippery slope.

Having said that, being prosecuted for endangering others I support wholeheartedly. Prosecuting someone for possession... I just think it does more harm than good.



Aye - I'm well aware. However, the media is busy trying to paint cannabis as the root cause of the depression, when the actual truth is likely closer to it possibly exacerbating a problem that was already there.

I see the depression/cannabis issue like a plane on autopilot flying through freezing rain - the pilots put on the autopilot because flying the plane manually is too fatiguing - the autopilot can cope for a while, but eventually the ice builds up to a point where it can't anymore and the pilots end up in an unrecoverable situation, because what they thought was helping was just masking the underlying problem.

Likewise drug use and depression. I think if you give pretty much any drug to a person suffering from acute depression, you're risking it giving temporary respite, but making the problem worse - and the way some GPs are doling out these new (and barely tested) SSRIs like they're Smarties really scares me.




Yup - am well aware. I think the cams *could* be used to benefit safety, but they're being abused right now.



Aye, but the law doesn't make enough distinction between those that are primarily dealing heroin and crack with the intention of creting addicts for profit, and those that mostly deal less chaotically addictive drugs, but may sell heroin to a person in need. It's kind of like a corollary to the Scam vs Trafpol situation... discretion would be necessary if it were to be decriminalised. The current law acts like a Scam, whereas a more Trafpol-esque approach is arguably more advisable.




These are dangerous idiots who need to be sorted out - but I don't think decriminalising would increase the number of idiots substantially. I think IG's being a little unfair to the average intelligence of our populace - I don't think anyone would argue that heroin becomes 'safe' if it's legalised with a straight face.

On the other hand, given that he has to deal with the muppets every day, I can understand why he feels that way.



Again, Darwin Awards - I believe everyone in this country is entitled to help with their problems, it's why I like living here... but I also think you can only help so far.



Aye - it's a shame that the media distorts the image of the HIV-infected heroin user so that many middle-class folks (especially Daily Mail readers) think it can never happen to them - I'm all for taking the blinkers off.



Some can, some can't - and such training is expensive for the average wage-slave. I can see Paul's point, but the cost of Hendon-style driver education for everyone on the roads would make driving the exclusive preserve of the relatively wealthy (and the tosspots who habitually break the law in their cars, but what the hey...).



Aye, but this unpublished research needs to be corroborated. Remember the American research that said MD*A caused loss of brain cells (or "holes in the brain" as Oprah called it... )? Turns out that the lab involved mixed up the control and test subjects so what these lab animals *actually* received was a highly neurotoxic, if not near-lethal dose of methamphetamine, which is a very different kettle of fish - and is the same stuff the USAF use to hop up their pilots.

Again, all I'm saying is that I believe that proper education is miles better than criminalisation when it comes to drugs, which I hope you can understand even if you don't agree.

This has been fun guys - and a real education. Think I'm going to stick around.

Tc.

#
Features very prominently in my line of work. Not just a matter as to whether the HIV under my overall control are HIV because of shared needles or whether my more contagious luriges patients are drug users /addicts - I have to knbow what they are taking to prescribe correct midcation to treat and these will interact badly with these drugs. Thus harms my treatment and affects my death stats - and believe it or not- we have targets to keep... Everything is geared to some target

Besides - these drugs are not and never were intended for recreational use - they are a medicine which I would consider using to counter extreme pain in limited prescribed quantity and would probably use cannabis to alleviate MS - tiny extracts of which are in some of the modern medicines anyway.



But.. we have problems with booze - and that's legal. Always been legal in UK as well (apart from Civil War puritan period when everything pleasurable was banned )

So hardly a knock-on effect ...

Besides - as Swiss have discovered - you provide = they use up the supply and get more from a dealer. So we are just moving the boundaries. Result .. I find I lose more patients because their drug habit gets in the way of my treatment - or I do what some other NHS Trusts do - and restrict treatment unless they go into rehab...whcih is what some colleagues do to cancer patieints who refuse to give up smoking. That - to me is not the right course of action - but it happens in other fields.



We will not win the war on booze either nor on cigarettes nor on junk food - all arguably do as much damage - and I admit this fact. I am a doctor after all.

But... there is a very big difference on overall control and weaning off the other items. The "give up smoking" products actually do deliver - and are a real help to those wishing to cease smoking. We can provide some treatment to the clinically obese - again they have to be motivated and compliant with us - like follow the darned diet....

Thus - we keep a hard control over these drugs - we have to. They are not for recreational fun use. Cannot see Wildy being impressed if I fell asleep on heroin high when I was supposed to be treating her to a night of passion...

Fell asleep once when dating her - took her to this fancy French restaurant and thought I was being daring by ordering plateful of oysters - and fell asleep face down in them... Was junior doc at time ... 120 hours per week....

But then again .. who needs drugs ....

Booze... well as Geroge Best proved - psychological help is required as a constant in such extreme cases. Probably - after hard drugs - the hardest to keep under control. Smokers can usually resist fags once they have beaten the habit - as lardies can usually keep to a healthier regime once the taste for cakes and chips has been licked

But beating drugs is different. Have five year old adopted son. Originally was with us a foster but we made good progress and they awarded guardianship to us. We adopted him and the older girl (different case but harrowing case as well) as we would have them until 16 or even 18 if they continued education. We wanted to send them to same school as our own and also make them feel wanted and genuinely belonging to this family - so we adopted. Anyway - this child is life long addict as he was born addicted to cocktail of heroin and other drugs. The first two years of his life were dreadful - we gave him prescribed doses as baby to get him through infancy and then had the harrowing years of weaning him off gradually. I have to be darned careful at all times when he needs medical treatemtn and we still have violent mood swings even now. This is not his personality - but the effects of the drugs on a developing brain in the womb and in infancy.


It will wear off as he grows - but I still have to deal with it in the present.

That's the dangers of these drugs - whether a "controlled habit" or not.




Manchester Evening yesterday carrie d story of man who leapt to his death in Salford, Manchester. He was 31 years old. He had taken a Hawaiian mushroom and became agitated when he feard a taxi driver was chasing him for an unpaid fare. The death was linked to the mushroom taking. It was legals up to last March to buy these mushrooms and eat in raw state. Now it is illegal as from this month.

But this chap bought three packs from a shop in Manchester and ate them in a manchester club. They were strong and the chap's girlfriend told the inquest the effects hit after ten minutes. They were on a high and felt they were in a different world -and after taking a taxi home - they did h=not recognised the street their home wasin and became agitated and disorientated. (per the girl who ate the mushrooms with him)

They then found they had no cash on them and ran into the flats without paying and the chap became very worried and imagined the taxi driver was running after them - with a pick-axe.

His girl friend is convinced that he became over anxius because of the mushrooms and he leapth theou a closed window from a top floor in thehigh rise flats. There was no intention of suicide

Autopsy revealed high booze content - over twice legal driving limit and there were high traces of psilocin in the blood . This has similar effect to LSD.

This substance gives feeling of intense euphoria and then a sense of deep anxiety and panic and is very hallucogenic.. It's a Calss A drug. and it certainly played its part in this tragedy.

You were saying about "safe"?

What if the bloke drove a car in this state?

These are mushrooms - food - harmless ain't they? Hah!



Um - itr will probably increase useage.

No government in right mind would keep price low. Certainly they'd tax high to deter.

General Medical Council would be looking at impact on NHS... and safety of medics....cost would escalate to protect those at the sharp end in A&E.



Like relaxation of drink laws? IG talks to me off line - we are buddies - he is my wife's cousin and how we met and became firm pals.



They would diversify.

Please be aware that Swiss druggies go to dealers when they run out of prescribed amounts. They undermine the work - and Swiss are surprisingly liberal on drug legislation.



My wife works for one of the major players who are frequently criticised over profits. Drugs companies are sharper than the dealers...and we will not free up billions - these gangsters will find another organised crime which will wreak same amount of damage and misery. But you can only prescribe so much... and they will go to dealer for more.... |



Perhaps if you had my job for a week - you'd change your mind.



IG would nuke the crops. He see the nasty side of life.




Yes... and they also have horrific penalties for drink in Saudi... Greed and Graham Greene wrote an intersting novel on this very topic on what people will do for greed.



Which is why IG says it will not stop crime to fund habit. And TAX is what will happen. It will not solve the problem



I I had a penny for every "Wish I had not" I would be very rich and would not have ot spend my life fighting for every life on my ward.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Good on you!





He is daft enough to want to follow me into medicine. Have tried to point out the nasty bits - but he seems unswayed. I was hoping he'd opt for a shorter course but that's me thinking of my bank balance...




I can .. these drugs are not the same as a smoking a cigarette. The damage is more immediately severe... and there are products to help smokers off the habit. The wean off is not as dramatic...based on observations - and I did have to deal with my wife at tolerance level - and that was not nice...for neither of us. Luckily - I had help from the family.



And we still have severe problems with abuse. But htis seems to be more a UK problem by comparison with elselwhere - global chase apart...



It does indeed...am medic - supposed to be understanding. But that does not mean I would condone wide scale use of dangerous druigs ....but I have to pick up the pieces.

Addicts who see me - they compromise their treatment - these drugs inter-react and one viral treatment is useless against heroin and another reacts badly with cannabis. So - not just death from overdose or HIV from shared needle they risk... there are other repercussions.



Except it is easier to wean off nicotine and booze - provided person wishes that to be the case (George Best being a case in point... )



Indeed.... and I have to try to keep them alive if they become HIV pos.



Ah.. well I only read the papers looking for the funnies to wind up BiB and the JJs



Ah.. well I've met more than you have ...and I am talking of hundreds down the years - counting the HIVs we see on the wards and in the outpatient sections. I deal, personal field, mainly with contagious lurgies - but am bloke in overall charge of all lurgies around here. Actually - it's quite fascinating - these lurgies are living entities in their own right and behaviour patterns.... amazin'



Out in the rural areas it's very different. Public transport is perhaps not quite as frequent or as varied up in't North.

[quoe="Tc"]
What do you do though - bang them up (my gut reaction) or get them treatment and driver's ed? The problem with banging them up is that you can almost guarantee that their habit will bring them into contact with some real hardcore wrong'uns and they get even further down the slippery slope.[/quote]

Rehab....seems only way. Clean up and educate. May not stop all - but we may clean up some.


10 minute sessions ... that's why some of my patients get to see me too late into the illness.



It is revenue raising. JJ hates us saying this - but foliage features .... Am talking weeds used as camouglage here ... to cop speed....or rather a little speed ....



You would be amazed at how naive and gullibel people at alre actually are - especially if "the government or the "StUn" says so!"



Why it has not been published yet...researchers will be dotting "i" s and crossing "ts"



Agree - we need education on drugs, drink and sex....(though for last one...in my case .. er.... think I am OK - have five of me own and two others...)



Hope so too... it's a good place to let off steam and set workd straight about scams and promote safe :driving:

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

There's got to be a way to sort the system so that this doesn't happen though. If there was a reputable supply outside the prescriptive system for hardcore abusers it may be possible to avoid going to the dealers.



Hmm - I'd disagree with this one. Most of the folks I've known on the inhalers/patches/gum ended up hooked on those instead of cigarettes.




Well, maybe if he'd been educated on the potential effects of these things then wouldn't you say there's a chance he'd have been able to sit down and say to himself "I'm not losing it, it's just the drugs, it'll pass".

Those mushrooms are a sacrament in their countries of origin - the native people thought they could use them to communicate with their gods. These are not things to be taken lightly.

On the other hand, I (allegedly) have heard of entire communities of people who occasionally indulge, and yet are no bother at all.

So where do we draw the line?

Do we need to draw a line at all?



Yup - that's a good point at which to draw a line.

Having said that I doubt very much he could have figured out the seatbelts before he was nicked.





And there's a better education than just saying "don't bloody do it"! You need to explain exactly *why* it's not such a good idea (and not criminalise the people that might know)!

Tc.

But surely they're doing that already.


I don't know. I doubt that it could be much easier... The country's awash with the damned things as it is.


I'm not suggesting "prescription", I'm suggesting "open sale" - like cigarettes - only with less or no tax.


But I'm not advocating "high tax" - I'm suggesting that it's time we all became "grown up" and took a pragmatic approach to what is a massive, and increasing, problem that the existing methods of "control" are not solving.

There's no hope of doing anything if the legal solution is so expensive that it leaves a good enough margin for criminal supply still to be lucrative. You only have to examine the increasing quantities of bootleg fags and booze coming into the country to see that there doesn't need to be much price disparity for a market to develop.


Problem is, we are paying for it... Through the nose... Look at the cost of the "war on drugs".. Customs & Excise and the police spend billions and achieve b*gger-all. C&E admit that they probably only get 10% of the illegal drugs coming into the country - and if they say 10% it's a pretty safe bet that it's less than 5.


Why should we pay more tax? I reckon that if you switched the money wasted on the "war on drugs" into rehab, education, medical support etc you'd have more funds than you'd know what to do with. You'd probably be able to spend those funds in a different way too - at least with "official" supplies, amongst other things you'd surely get less accidental overdoses as the strength would be consistent, and you wouldn't have to spend so much time identifying what sh*t the things had been cut with.


That's why I'm suggesting that a low or non-tax regime would be needed. If they were supplied at cost plus a handling charge, the supply-chain isn't going to cost the taxpayer anything, it might even make a small profit - unlikely though, knowing any bureaucracy's inability to operate in anything approaching an efficient way, however, one can dream...
As to treatment, we're already paying for it, and I'm willing to hazard a guess that the funds presently allocated to treatment and education are a drop in the ocean compared to those allocated to "enforcement".


I know.. One of my friends, who works in rehab, reckons that the present "education" on drugs merely "gives the kids something to laught at when they're high".


But what I'm saying is that a complete change in approach could be much more effective in actually getting to grips with the problem and yet be revenue-neutral.


Don't get me started! They probably spend more on subsidising the House of Commons Members' dining room than the entire rehab budget!

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

They always do this once their pension is established....

No - we will never win agaisnt these hardened and violent types - no matter what we do.

Legalise one thing - they find another equally nasty activity. Latest organised crime is people smuggling - big time ... What do we do? Oh I know - abolish all immigration laws with immediate effect. It will make the activity legal straight away - and they can get away with charging high cost to these people just the same - only their income would then be legal.

Same with the dealers - who would charge same prices just the same...

You don't deal with these people. I do - and I know the types I and all my colleagues are really up against. All very well - for someone to spout his opinions after retirement. I started off on the narcotics team - and I knew this guy and worked with him years ago.... we were Hendon trained as we needed to be able to chase villains around ....but we move up and around - and policing of Durham is a team effort - from all departments - completely. Could be why we have one of the best records on actual crime detection as well as the safest roads in UK.

(Well - it's true - not blowing a trumpet here ... we could do better still and there is always room for improvement - inevitably when it takes time to catch a villain - the victim feels we are not trying as they want immediate results ... but we gets our man eventually... )

Now - a really good and effective BiB uses discretion - and I admit that when on traffic (and my role here is road safety related) - never did nick a safe but fast driver for the sake of it. Would have a word and make up my mind within one second of first meeting as to what outcome would be. You just know if person is a twazak or a decent chap ... it's instinct, experience - BiB's nose or sixth sense.


Some of our colleagues are the same with users.... users lead us to the dealers and up to the real criminals behind them. Thus - we may not necessarily nab someone for small possession of substance. BUT and this is big BUT.... Depends on person and on circumstances. Quite naturally - if this user has mugged some one's Granny and nicked her pension to feed his habit - that's very different - and this patch will throw whole book at him ...charges for mugging, theft, causing injury, ect and possession of an illegal substance

But each gang of CID specialising in this have their own ways of rounding up these criminals...



Shall have to remember that they have the right to kill themselves next time we see our rogue bikers up in Teesdale...

And next time a colleague is required to talk to someone about to chuck herself off a bridge across the fast dual carriageway around here - shall tell him to tell her to jump then - as she has the right to do this and kill or injure an innocent motorist (which affects our KSI stats - and people start jumping on us over the scam business again)

I have a moral and ethical responsibility. in addition to my duty to enforce a law (and enforcement can be up to our discretion to a very limited point and it is a very finely drawn line), to try to stop someone harming themselves - especially if it involves other innocent people.



No - we are not immortal. But we have a responsibility to live our lives in a civilised way - and this is a civilised society which has set out a code of behaviour for the common good and welfare.

Lot of suicides also kill themseves unintentionally - by overdosing by mistake or per the story Mad Doc reported from a Manchester newspaper. My brother is Manchester BiB - he confirms this story as true as his division dealt with this case.



But they would not be kept low. These thugs would still get people hooked by running the girls and the rent boys just the same to ensure income and customers for the product. They would still price high because they are not interested in normal 35% standard net profit margin subject to corporation tax and placing in reserves to fund future quality control plant...these blokes are interested only in liquid assets to go and buy their Rolexes, Guccis and Maseratis....





Er.... been in a town centre on a Friday or Saturday night recently? Especially during so-called Happy Hours? More will enter the "market" and use and more will binge drink and binge drug.....



Hmm.. as said - they will find other nastier ways of indulging their criminal mind sets. They will still deal in free maket - perhaps legally - but we sould still have the violent crimes, burglaries and sundry nuisance crimes to fund a habit as these shark-like dealers are only interested in money and more money.

Even if offered at NHS prescription charges - they would receive a limited amount. Users will always want that extra fix - and will go to a dealer just the same ...we are really solving nothing here by legalising. There is much more to this picture than meets the eye - and we do not know how much editing went on... perhaps they only filmed part of what he actually said. It happens all the time on the telly. You get the version the producer and editor wishes as the outcome. Either that or he has been body snatched by the phantom Pee-cee pod...




Hmmm. The drugs prices are pushed up to these billions by the drug barons. Actual cost of production is actually very low. Thus - the billions generated by these gangsters would not necessarily fall if they are allowed to deal legally - they'd sell at a lower price perhaps - but to lots more people - supply and demnad curves....and they'd manipulate it like any business will to ensure profit margins - at an artificial high. No guarantee that their accounting would not be a bit on the creative side either. In fact - you could say this about the large pharmaceuticals based on some of the recent scandals....and Mad Doc's wife's (Wildy ) firm has made mega profits by excessively high pricing of their products. Most of these, as I understand, do not cost this to actually produce...and Wildy:neko: - of course - justifies it by claiming that they are paying for her brains



Ah... but for every person like you - I get 200 "weaklings" who get hooked
and go forth and commit crime. Lot of people in the world and they are not made of the same strong stuff as you and me.




True - and there is a drink trade in Saudi and they could either subject you to hundreds of lashes or chop your head off in public

No - it does not stop people ... they think they will not get caught! That's the problem.

They think they have been clever and covered their tracks - but the the substances make them careless and they get caught. Also - they weigh up the profits and money they make and judge it to be worth the risk - and perhaps it gives them a buzz - being able to control people by getting them hooked to their product.

So not really a "freedom" - prisoner of the drugs....



We would not be able to introduce death penaly - bound by EU legislation on this. France and Spain were last countries to drop it... under EU legislation. USA - another matter and long spell on Death Row followed by execution is a very nasty way of treating people. But this punishment is reserved for violent murderers - especially those who kill BiB.. in the States which enforce this law. Personally - I think it is a very draconian practice and would not wish to see this here.



No - but my problem would be that these people will commit crime to afford to buy the stuff legally and pay the tax on it.

That's the problem.



Exactly - and that is what would happen.

Even if we placed it under NHS control .... addict has to get prescription. Can you really see someone going to doctor annd sayin

"I wanna try heroin. Can I have a prescription for it please!"

Yeahh.... right... Can really see this happening.

So who would they turn to? A DEALER and commit a CRIME to PAY his prices.

More to it than glibly saying "Prohibition does not work - let's legalise"

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Nobody has mentioned that if we legalised, while others did'nt,, we'd get "Drug tourism" like Amsterdam does now!

As somebody who does not smoke, or do drugs, I am inclined to say we need to examine what it is about them that appeals, despite the quite obvious dangers.

Nowadays, I see kids on the streets, who expect to get their enjoyment at the press of a button, nobody wants to wait any more.

I used to MAKE balsa wood gliders, then go out and fly them. Educational AND entertaining, while todays kids go and buy them in a packet, and when it ends up on a roof because they were careless, they go and buy another.
Perhaps we could make a start by removing second hands from clocks and watches - then perhaps minute hands. Think of the benefits in the long term! Instead of lighting up, or taking a hit, you could brew your own wine/beer, and learn the ins and outs of fermentation, once you got rid of the need for an INSTANT answer!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Excellent post Ernest. It is a case of motivating to other interests and rekindling that enthusiam for life and simpler amusements....proper childhoods, learning patience and learning how to do things...

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Hello Ernest



That's right. Laws need to be relaxed everywhere, not just in one jurisdiction. However, if any government were brave enough to end prohibition, as long as they were prepared to put up with short-term 'drugs tourism' for the first year or two, others would soon be pressured by their populations to follow when they see the huge benefit yield in crime reduction.



Well, loads of people have studied this. At the end of the day your view will come down to a basic philosophical attitude about personal freedom and responsibility. You can't force people to be the way you want them to be.



Me too. Led me to learn to fly, then get JAA qualified. Kids still do make and fly gliders & planes, but I think less than they used to. Time moves on. Be careful you don't start sounding like your dad...

_________________
'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

But.. world is not ideal. Islamic States do not relax booze laws - not even for Western visitors and ex-pats.

Can really see rest of world bowing to UK just because they decided th follow the Dutch and Swiss in relaxing the rules for possession.

Liverpool and Continental Needle Parks only offer prescription to registered addicts and not those wishing to use. If we went prescription route - we'd only prescribe to registered users. Others would still buy from dealers - at high prices and crime would still exist.... Not solving anything....


Some US States have capitall punishment and others do not. Murders and violent crimes are about equal ....so no benefits in reduction of long prison term v long prison term followed by execution.




I agree with Ernest - we need to find out what makes these drugs so attractive.

Harrowing case reported in tabloid press yesterday about young man who was promising footballer, but who succumbed to peer pressure and died from a heroin overdose. He took to crime and could not keep a steady job becuase his mind was on the next fix. (Papers also reported case of 14 yeard old cannabis addict - who is not locked up after accumulating 18 convictions to feed an expensive habit.)

Part of it peer pressure and celeb worship. Some girls even think drugs help them keep slim as well... like the smoking myth

But there is nothing cool about being in a drug-induced trance nor dying in a pool of vomit after overdosing.

It certainly does not keep you lean and trim either.



ARRRGGH! "Time Moves on!"...... And I sound just like my own Dad when talking to the kids too! Homework, telephone.... girlfriends, boyfriends... being "late" home....

What's wrong with building your own glider anyway? Mine built their own go-kart outa bits of wood - just like I did...

Given them a nice healthy appreciation of speed !

Packs and instant gliders ... Pah! Real men made real gliders when they were lads!

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Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
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KEEP SMILING
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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Why on earth should they?

There is a difference between driving fast - after all there is skill and we are concentrating on enjoying the feel of the speed sensation and the drive and performance of the car.

But.. on the simpler pleasures ...savouring a moment, drinking in the sheer overwhelming beauty of a local landscape scene, taking time to enjoy a well cooked meal, rolling a single malt in your mouth to get tthe full flavour, and the same with a decent wine....just taking time to make something... making a model airplane with my youngest sons, walking the youngest in her pram and watching her mother play with her... playing football with my older sons and also building up an old car to roadworthy condition with them - and taking our time bringing it back to mint perfection... a leisurely game of golf and trying not to laugh in the yoga class when she tells me not to forget to breathe.....

Now... that's living....

You should try yoga - ties you in knots. You learn patience trying to get outa them!

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

My point was that in adopting a quick instant approach to everything, they are not developing a sense of patience.
Their recreation is shallow, and they become easily bored. They start to find vandalism entertaining - humerous pranks at first, but like drugs, needing a bigger and bigger hit!

In Kendal, two girls are suspected of vandalising a large number of cars, scratched with a key or similar object, and costing thousands of pounds to put right.
Their ages??? between 8 and 12!!!

Maybe a pile of balsa wood is not the answer for them, but scratching cars should not be either!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'd like to mention what I think is an insidious form of drug. I used to enjoy Pringles - you know how when you've eaten one you have to finish the tube off. Well I realised after a little while that there must be a substance in the recipe that makes you do this! So I don't eat them any more.
How many other foods have similar addictive effects due to substances included in the recipe? - certain sweets definitely do, licquorice allsorts being one.
And then there's additives - I used to use an energy drink on the bike called PSP22 until someone pointed out (in a big debate on Cycling +) that the flavouring agent, aspartame, can cause nervous system damage when taken in large doses. Guess what? Aspartame is one of the main sweeteners used in diet drinks everywhere. It is not addictive though. These days I use sugar in water as an energy drink.

YEP -think the official term was "getting bertied"
Extra strong /those with holes (mints) are suspect -ask any person
kicking fags.
Now the terms of this post make me ask,

"Was it someone on the so called safety pratnerships or an officer that came up with that saying" --

SPEED KILLS"

????????????????

[/quote]

Oh - don't get me started on those additives - whatever you do...

There is research - published and still to be published as well regarding effects of these on behaviour. If you deprive of these foods - body craves and it is like "cold turkey".

Of course, we let the kittens eat some sweets and crisps in moderation - and they do drink something Wildy buys from health shop - which is quite pleasant and they appear prefer this Aqua Libra stuff to Lucozade -but even then we ration it for specials. Rest of time they drink plain old fashioned water or milk - and they are brought up with wine at table on Sundays and our special meals.

We are old fashioned to some extent - meals at table as family - cooked by Wildy and me together most of the time - and our elder kids join in the fun of cooking whislt the younger ones lay table.

Nice cosy family life really .... and we insist on it.

Guess we are odd... petrolheaded family felines....and strict parents too...

But it's all a question of balance and self-discipline ... bit like really

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.