Safe Speed Forums

OK, so I'm bimbling along the M1 approaching London in the left-hand lane, holding it at around 70. I see a guy in a Citroen Xantia parked on the hard shoulder with hazards on about 5 seconds in front of me. Closing to 3 seconds, the hazards are off and he's indicating right. I have a stream of traffic overtaking me on the right-hand side stopping me from moving out to the middle lane (as I habitually do whenever I'm unsure what someone on the hard shoulder is actually doing). I'm hoping that he's checked his mirrors and clocked me, but he actually immediately starts rolling and pulling out. There's still traffic to my right so I have no choice but to check the mirror and progressively apply anchors - while I'm coming down through 50 he still seems so be accelerating to 30, so the anchors go on even harder.

Thankfully we ended up matching speed with him by the time there was half a car length's difference, so a stack was averted - but it worried me because I felt there was very little I could do in that situation. Current law says that if I had hit him it would have been my fault, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to immediately pull out from near-stationary on the hard shoulder in medium to heavy traffic.

Was there anything else I could have done besides what I did?

Tc.

P.S. (In retrospect I realise I could have used the hard shoulder to pass him on the left in case the emergency had been direr, but I'm unsure of the legality of it). Ah well, if nothing else it showed the importance of always manitaining an escape route for any given hazardous situation.

Never mind the legality of using the hard shoulder, it seems to have been your only way out. I'd have used it (had I been quick/smart enough at the time).

Any reaction from the idiot or did he just continue blindly on his way?

I'm never very happy in L1 when there's 'stuff' on the hard shoulder. I've often moved out a lane to give good clearance, because you never really know what's going to happen next with hard shoulder 'traffic'. You might suddenly be facing dogs or pedestrians or a driver more concerned with his breakdown than the passing traffic. If I can easily pull right to increase my margin, I'll reduce speed to increase my margin.

I can't see that you did anything wrong, but I'd recommend treating anything on the hard shoulder as a significant risk at an early stage.

You might have considered a warning (lights / horn).
You might have been better advised to slow down more and earlier.
You might have been better moving a lane to the right early on.

The 'escape to the hard shoulder' is good as a last resort, but the risk is that as you pull left, so does chummy (he's trying to get out of your way).

And finally if L2 traffic was so dense that no possibility of moving right existed, I'd have wanted to be 'out of there' for that reason alone. I try to ensure escape space and a solid stream of close-packed vehicles in the next lane to the right gives little in the way of escape space. I'd slow down or speed up so that in general I'm driving alongside a gap, rather than another vehicle.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

If someone pulls from another lane into your lane in front of you, at a much lower speed than you, and you hit him after taking all due care etc. with no possibility of avoidance, it's not technically your fault. It's his responsibility to check he isn't going to cause a collision before changing lanes. This is what mirrors are for, and why in the UK driving test, if a candidate neglects to look over their right shoulder to check traffic passing from behind every time before moving off, they are failed.

If you'd been driving a truck doing 56mph with a 42 ton load behind you, and someone had done that, then one more Citroen for the breakers yard. Trucker not responsible.

(n.b. I was a DoT ADI for >5 years, and taught >700 people to drive to test standard.)

_________________
'The normally careful and competent actions of a reasonable person should be considered legal, regardless of the letter of statute'

Rioman, Herts

If someone suddenly changes lane or pulls out without looking - careless and would help in insurance - especially on pull out from hard shoulder.


No witness - they take easy way out - split liability.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I don't believe it would've been your fault if you had hit the other car that was emerging from the hard shoulder. From your description, it was the fault of the other driver because of his lousy, ignorant motorway discipline. NEVER, EVER drive straight onto a motorway from the hard shoulder-as the Highway Code states (Rule 250) If the other driver had any sense, he should've used the hard shoulder as an acceleration lane to build up speed to join the traffic flow on the carriageway. So you wouldn't have to take action to avoid an accident. You shouldn't consider using the hard shoulder to overtake on the left (Rule 243). But if time permitted, you could've pulled in to the hard shoulder, stopped and waited for him to move off-although I'm unsure how this would justify using the hard shoulder in an emergency.

_________________
Anyone who tells you that nothing is impossible has never bathed in a saucer of water.

It begs the question - did ANYBODY in lane two see what was going on ahead, and not make an allowance for you to make lane 2 an escape route, by slowing for you?

If in lane two, and you see a vehicle in lane one catching up a slow moving caravan or lorry, you should consider the possibility of a sudden pull out. They might not have noticed the Citroen, but should they have been more aware?

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

People joining a motorway from the hard shoulder virtually never seem to realise that they can - and should - use the hard shoulder as an acceleration lane. Instead they emerge into Lane 1 at 10 mph

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I know - never been able to get around this one! Beyond me why they do this - after all - they use the slip road to gain speed and merge in the flow. Rejoining after a stop should be seen as similar manoeuvre - building up speed to rejoin in the flow.

If accident occurs - go off debris and general in situ evidence and forensic testing of vehicles involved (if serious and warranted). If car pulled out and driver took all actions and still could not avoid collision - would be gunning for driver who caused the crunch.

If civil and no police involvement and one word against other - and no real proof either way - think the insurers go for split liability as "easy option" But could be wrong on this... just based on what I hear...

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Thanks guys.

I'm well aware that I could have eased off my speed, and in future, that's what I'll do in that situation. Thankfully there were no bones or cars broken this time, but it's definitely one I'll be chalking up to experience,



What do you think?



I did consider the horn, but was worried that it might have caused him to panic brake when he was in L1 with me closing. As for lights, I was worried that he might take it as a signal I was intending to let him out. Moving to the right was my instinctive reaction, but I'd had an Audi alongside me from the moment I clocked him, followed by two other cars following at a car's length behind the Audiand each other. I didn't think I had the space, and didn't want to risk it. You're right about slowing down though, and I'll be doing that in future in the same siutation.



I had 2 passengers with me, one of whom was awake, and who saw the whole thing. I do wonder if I'd have frozen and been less logical if I wasn't primarily concerned for them (I didn't know if the girl in the back seat had her belt on, for one thing, because she was sleeping).



The Audi alongside me had passed by the time I'd had the anchors on for 2 seconds or so (I reckon that the group must have been doing about 75-80) - to be honest I didn't see what the two behind him were doing, though a glance inside my door mirror suggested that they hadn't moved - by which time I'd committed to solid braking due to noticing a nice big gap behind me, thus meaning that I wouldn't have had the momentum to pull into L2 safely anyway. I figured that the worst case scenario of a light rear-end shunt wasn't as bad as a potential 4-car pile-up.

It's amazing how quickly your mind works in that siutation though.

Again thanks for the support guys.

Tc.

Well, I'm glad you got out of it - for two reasons:
1. Good driving is alive and well and plans on staying that way ;0
2. If it had gone wrong there would have been a case for camera vans

What would I have done?
- As suggested, L2 if the option was available on the approach to the hazard.
- Otherwise, braking as you suggested when the situation started to deteriorate, harder when the car appeared to be emerging, and possibly pulse the brake lights every few seconds.
- Also, a loooong headlamp flash to try to wake the driver to your presence.
- Hazard lights when it really got hairy - my wife is good at getting ready for this, she'll reach for the button and be ready if I say so.
- Hard shoulder as absolute last resort to avoid impact, brakes still on hard in an ABS car, brake-off-steer-brake in non-ABS.