Safe Speed Forums

In our latest training session (not on the road) we were being told how to corner and about positioning for maximum visibility etc. I asked if it was permissible to straight-line a corner if you could see right through it, i.e cross the white lines (where legally permitted) to make one's course straighter. I was told in no uncertain terms that I was never to cross the white lines in the centre of the road in such circumstances.
This leads me to understand that I am to treat all white lines as if they are solid double whites except when I want to overtake. I am sure this will provoke some comment.

Yes I expect it will. I think you have been advised wrongly.

By all means straighten the line, but only if you are quite sure there is no risk of coming into conflict with another road user.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I should coco!

We need to position for these three advantages in the order shown:

Safety
Vision
Grip reserves

Clearly we should never compromise vision for grip reserves nor safety for vision. But if we can straightline an open curve safely it'd be criminal not to.

To be fair, I know where they are coming from. They are worried about what happens if we make a mistake, or perhaps become over enthusiastic. But they are still wrong, because if we do make a mistake then greater vision or greater reserves of grip are the best ways to save the day.

I'd be cautious about trading off any grip advantage for greater speed. Although straightening a shallow kink might sometimes offer at least a 50mph advantage. In such cases I'd probably have (at least?) 25mph of it.

I suppose I should go back and fit legality into my priority list. But I can't be bothered because I trust you all to use your intelligence!

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This is another example of the somewhat "anal" attitude that can be shown by IAM groups. Obviously it is simpler to say that you should never straightline bends, than to get into discussing the circumstances where it may be safe and appropriate.

I don't see any problem with it provided that you have sufficient visibility and there is no question of your actions being misinterpreted. If there is a car coming the other way a quarter of a mile away, straightlining a bend in his path may cause alarm.

Unless you do a lot of driving on unfenced moorland roads you won't get much opportunity to do it, though.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I remember once hearing that you shouldn't cut bends if you have someone following as they may copy your actions and they may not have the skill or indeed vision because of the position of your vehicle.
Personally I think common sense should be applied here and I think that it not only affords better vision but also contributes toward vehicle stability which is of course vital on a bends.
I agree with Peter above and his comments on the I.A.M, or some of, being anal.

Definately disagree.

And its not just open moorland roads where moving over to the right on the approach to a left hand bend can improve visibility, safety and allow a slightly smoother line to be taken.

On countyside roads through arable farmland where you often have a banking alongside the road you can improve your vision round moderate left handers by uing the right hand side of the road. Providing you always remember not to exceed a speed where you can return to your side of the road and still be within the "stop in the distance you can see to be clear" rule.

I can see there is a danger that someone may be tempted to use the straighter line to increase ones speed but this isn't the basic test we are talking about, it is supposed to be an advanced test.

I also see nothing wrong with cutting a right hander where you can see it to be clear providing you take account of following traffic possibly attempting an overtake. Again my goal would be smooth progress not extra speed.

The danger is in taking a "racing line" to increase speed and then having no way out if something unexpected happens.

I have been out few a few runs with ROSPA observer while preparing for my test. I asked him about straightening then bend where safe and his answer was that not approved of on the test, which i can live with. Just as if when i take test and am unable to overtake safely without exceeding speed limit then i will have to hang back.

One of those things, to pass these tests you have to do it by their rules.

I think it is that as IAM/ROSPA are charitable organisations they have to be very careful as to what they do and say.

I can understand that but there is nothing illegal about being on the R/H (not wrong ) side of the road unlike speeding while overtaking.

I'm with Homer on this - go over the lines to increase visibility and make sure that you can get back safely in what you can can see. Do not take the racing line unless it is clearly safe to do so.

There is also the other white line scenario where a road that would otherwise have been suitable for overtaking is no longer so because somebody has decided to paint a right turn filter lane in the middle of the road. With the strict interpretation of the rules you have to wait until this has been cleared, while if you are sure that no other vehicle is going to turn into (or out from) the side lane it is perfectly safe to overtake.

I think they do not wish to be accused of encouraging any driving which could be seen as 'risky' - even if it is perfectly safe.

Have read a book by John Lyon who set up HPC, from memory i think his view was that can do it as long as have clear view with no dead ground and will not be witnessed by any oncoming drivers.

having done the IAM and ROSPA tests, they tend to take an understandably cautious line on this.Whilst acknowledging that in many circumstances crossing the white line will be safe, or indeed safer than not, they cannot be seento encourage it, particularly for the test, in case others deliberately 'misinterprete'(sp?) and accuse them of telling drivers to do this all the time.
As with speeding on the tests, each of my examiners told me that they would expect strict adherence in 30and 40mph limits, but would allow a little leeway on 50,60 and 70mph areas.

A little trick I use when posting, and I’m unsure of the spelling, is to copy the contents of my post and paste into a Word document. Word picks up any spelling errors for me and once the spelling has been fixed I copy the text from Word and paste it back into post. (misinterpret)

Or… if I am planning a long post I write it in Word and then copy and paste it into the post.

So you see, I'm not all that good at spelling, it just looks that way...

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

I see no problem with taking a straighter line through corners PROVIDED:

-You are SURE there is no oncoming traffic you may endanger by doing so.
-You are SURE nobody is going to try to overtake you whilst partway through the manoeuvre.
-You will be able to safely return to the left side of the road should oncoming traffic appear unexpectedly

(oops posted the same message twice)

A case was made for crossing the white lines in order to take a wider line around a left-hand corner which is what I included earlier, because it can dramatically increase visibility down the road ahead - this is the exact opposite of the "racing-line". I can't remember where I heard about it, but the theory was that you should always go as wide as practical around corners even to the extent of putting your right wheels 2 or 3 foot over for a left turn.

It does work as the extra visibility means that a higher speed can be maintained because of "stop in what you can see", but can sometimes get a little hairy when the person coming the other way is a firm believer in cutting the corner on the racing line.

Anyone else ever heard of this?

I wouldn't call a wide line the opposite of the racing line because both lines start and finish wide. I can see value in the technique, and I'll often take a left hand bend on a motorway or dual carriageway in the rightmost lane for just this reason. Of course every choice has to be balanced against risk and other factors. We shouldn't be giving other road users nasty surprises or getting in their way. If we can do something and gain a safety advantage (as you do by increasing vision) then I'm all for it.

The best line for most single carriageway bends is a late apex line that allows for error and good exit speed.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Plus good visibility around the bend.

Cheers
Peter

Now are we getting to a consensus here?

By "late apex", I presume you mean that you are closest to the inside of the corner as you are starting to exit the corner, which can only be achieved by staying out wide at the start (which also increases visibility).

Sometimes writing isn't best way to describe things - perhaps a picture or two would help.

A racing line would be mid apex, but leaves little scope for correction, and an early apex puts you in the hedge because you got the line totally wrong in the first place.

No apex at all is the other option which can be very smooth but requires a lower overall speed, because talk of "the apex" only starts with the assumption of maintaining higher speed through a corner. Perhaps we should just slow down a bit? :wash mouth out with soap

"Late" apex is indeed getting closest to the inside after the true apex.

It allows for a higher exit speed but, on the downside, you have to slow down more before entering the bend.

Because it allows for higher exit speeds, it is most often used as the racing line on the track.

But it also has advantages for normal road use:

1) It allows greater speeds for the same safety margin, or a greater safety margin at the same speed.

2) It allows better visibility around the bend.

3) It allows for greater separation between vehicles. If the car coming the other way also uses the "late" apex the the two apexes will not be at the same point.

4) It lessens the chance of 'running out of road', particularly if the bend tightens unexpectedly.

5) As you are straighter at the exit of the bend, you're in a better position if you have to brake unexpectedly.

Cheers
Peter

First off Pauls annalysis of the order (Safety, visibility Grip) is not the order that is represented by Roadcraft. Roadcraft specifies Safety, Stability Visibility and you never sacrifice stability/grip for visibility.

As for crossing white lines to gain visibility you should never "off side" to increase visibility however if you are already "off-side" it is permissable to remain so to maintain the visibility you already have. Theres a big difference.

Straightening corners? if you are finding it necessary to do so you are not travelling at a speed which allows you to stop, in control in the distance you can see to be clear on your own side of the road.

In motorcycling speak you are describing the racing line and the racing line is generally totally contary to the safety line, as advanced driving/riding on the road is actually about safety, the racing line is unacceptable.

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Former Military Police Officer and accident investigator