Safe Speed Forums

Are you allowed to exceed the speed limit when you overtake in a safe location?

I recently encountered a mobile speed trap on a famous straight section of road used regulary for overtaking. The central lines are broken and there is good visibility of the road ahead (A5 Westbound immediately after Cerrigydruidion in North wales)

I pulled out of a line of traffic the moment I could veiw the road ahead was clear, I acccelarated to overtake a couple of slow moving cars but probably reached 70-75mph on the 60 section.

trained and with 11 years experience of 999 driving I immediately noticed a Hi Visc jacket some distance ahead hiding on the opposite side of the road pointing a gun at me.

DO I SLAM ON THE BRAKES AGGRESIVELY and get back into the queue CAUSING A POSSIBLE DANGER TO THE OTHER ROAD USERS?
OR
DO I GRADUALLY AND SAFELY REDUCE MY SPEED having overtaken BUT RISK BEING CAMERED ABOVE THE 60MPH LIMIT?

Unfortunately I'm used to driving above speed limits whilst on duty (not a copper) and do so where it is safe to exceed the limit.

Was I immediately in the wrong by exceeding the limit as I overtook?

How on earth North Wales Police expect to reduce accidents by trapping people once they've committed to an overtake is beyond me, less experienced drivers would panic on seeing the trap and in my opinion create a risk by trying drastic avoidance measures.

I await to see if I get a ticket.

Comments please

Hi Jedwar, Welcome.

Firstly, the law does not provide any exception for overtaking.

There's one thing and only one thing wrong with the picture you describe, and that's enforcement practice. I have no doubt that you had selected a safe and appropriate speed. A few short years ago, no Police Officer would have even considered prosecuting you for speeding when overtaking with care and consideration.

Now, with cameras, the rules have changed and all manner of stupid prosecutions are taking place at the rate of about 8,000 per day.

Cross you fingers and watch the mail. If something nasty does turn up we might have some ideas for you.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I believe the law in Spain does officially provide such an exemption (I think it may be up to 20 kph over the limit).

Interestingly, when I took my IAM test four years ago, the examiner specifically said that, while in general he expected me to adhere to all limits, he would be prepared to accept a brief exception during an overtake.

I would think any traffic officer worthy of the name would take the same view.

Depressingly, there are more and more roads where cameras seem to have been placed specifically to prevent safe overtaking, the A68 between Carter Bar and Dalkeith being a notorious example.

Regards,

Peter

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

The copper in his squad car was using the camera they place close up to their eye, don't know the name of this one but I presume it won't register that I was reducing speed, and i don't know at what distance he will have registered my speed. I was under 65 as within 100metres of him. But possible 75mph at 400-500metres

I'm sure the copper won't recall that I was reducing speed as evidence.

If they want to reduce accidents on that fast section of road they should install staggered traffic calming measures and unbroken white lines.

"But traffic calming measures just prevent accidents, they don't generating revenue."

I think, more importantly, 'traffic calming' measures do the exact opposite, causing frustration, damage to your vehicle and potential injury (with speed bumps, at least.)

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Yep, try a lot of the A9 as well.

I also remember being told by the driving instructor that exceeding the limit when overtaking is OK.

I think a good question to ask would be: 'is safe overtaking as safe as no overtaking at all?'. I know it is extremely hard to answer - how to measure the effect on safety that results from longer journey times and incerased frustration of being 'stuck' behind a day-tripper or a lorry. But, I myself overtake regularly and I know that once you have overtaken one car, you get in the 'overtaking mood' and it is more tempting to overtake the next one. You may think 'if the guy I just overtook catches up with me at the next junction he will say to himself with glee 'didn't get you very far mate'. Or it could be just the adrenalin level that leads you to push the safety margin a bit. What if it is safer, on average, to accept a speed that is 5-10 mph below the posted limit? In this case it would bring a safety benefit if we were forced to stop overtaking. Could this be the intended effect of strict speed limit enforcement on straight roads?

arthurdent

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DO NOT PANIC

Can overtaking be done dangeously? Absolutely!
Can overtaking be done safely? Absolutely!

We just need to better educate drivers so that they know the difference.

I'm not sure that it is safer to accept the lower speed if it means passing up an opportunity to overtake safely. It only takes one person driving unecessarily slowly plus a couple more behind them that aren't willing to overtake, and then a queue starts to form. Slow moving queues often lead to some drivers getting delayed, then frustrated, and finally tempted to try overtaking when it's marginal instead of waiting for a safe opportunity. Yes, I know the obvious answer is that people should allow more time for their journies and leave earlier, but that's human nature. An equally obvious answer would be to provide more opportunities to overtake safely and within the speed limit, which should keep verybody happy. In practice that'd mean more dual carriageways, and aside from the cost it only takes one sighting of a lesser spotted guitar playing weasel for Swampy and his mates to move in and start tunnelling. Perhaps it'd just be easier if the police allowed some leeway for overtaking drivers after all.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

[quote="Gatsobait]Perhaps it'd just be easier if the police allowed some leeway for overtaking drivers after all.[/quote]

I think that this is the point. Most reasonable police officers would alow leeway for someone overtaking in a safe manner, albeit at a slightly illegal speed. A camera, on the other hand, has no means of judging safety at all.

OK assume X% of drivers overtake safely and the other (100-X)% dangerously. The proportion X may increase with improved education but it will never be 100%. Net result: there will always be accidents during overtaking manoeuvres. Stop overtaking = stop these accidents.

Does anyone know of any stats relating:
% of accidents associated with overtaking
% of fatalities associated with overtaking

Assuming that it is possible to scare the general public into never overtaking, we would then have a trade-off situation where we eliminate fatalities & injuries associated with overtaking but we risk adding to the deaths & injuries resulting from increased journey times and congestion etc. If the net effect is still positive then it is all well and good, in the wider interest of public safety and any reasonable person would have to accept it.

But I agree that we can never scare everyone into not overtaking and this complicates things even more. These non-conforming risk-takers can potentially undo all the good. What if I am one of these people?

ad

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DO NOT PANIC

I would argue that I am allowed to overtake because the white lines are broken and the road is very straight and all possible dangers are visibly. I have risk assessed the decision to overtake.

However, if I overtake without exceeding the speed limit I will be on the otherside of the road for a considerable amount of time and distance slowly edging in front of the car I'm overtaking.

Instead I do a risk assessment and I chose to exceed the speed limit to spend the least amount of time and distance on the wrong side of the road to reduce the risk of an accident. (Alex Furguson case highlighted that it's safe to exceed speed limits in emergencies).

Suddenly jumping out and pointing a speed camera at an overtaking motorist is not a very good risk asssessment on the part of the policeman.

Cheers

jedwar

Perhaps someone else can clarify the exact set-up, but I understand that in Sweden they have installed central barriers on substantial lengths of rural single-carriageway road to prevent crossing over to the other side of the road to overtake. As I understand it, these roads tend to have paved shoulders which tractors and other slow vehicles can use to allow others to pass, but normal overtaking is completely impossible.

Regards,

Peter

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

That sounds dreadful. Single carriageway overtaking is perfectly safe, if done in a sensible manner and a suitable place. Forcing people to wait for the next bit of dual carriageway is only going to cause anger and frustration, which can only have a negative influence on their driving.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

It is horrifying that someone can write this and in the same post ask a question that shows complete ignorance of the law regarding speed limits. Why should Britain tremble?
Of course there is no provision for exceeding the speed limit for an overtake.

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It's Champion Man

He is wrong then.



How do you know this. I would think this is a very sweeping statement and it would be wrong to assume this on behalf of the traffic police.


The cameras are there because there have been accidents to justify their placement there. There may have been a lot of them caused by dodgy overtaking, hence the accidents, hence the camera, hence the signing, hence the prevention of the overtaking causing so many accidents.

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It's Champion Man

So, because they can't overtake in relatively safe places, drivers are tempted to attempt overtaking manoeuvres in less suitable locations. Great victory for safety, that

Regards,

Peter

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

How slow? 60 -ish? in 60? or 55-58 - it being Brunstromia?

A5 at this stretch will be notorious for speed traps over summer season.
Our cousin - the Scam Shy one - lives near here. She says most accidents have involved bikers in the summer - and they usually misjudge the a curve in crown of A5 just after Cerrigydruidon. This stretch (and Pentrefoelas (can never spell it correctly?) have been in press recently as the villagers are said to want a scam there. (Shy says she has never been consulted and the comment that artics were driving through at 80mph in middle of the night were simply not true! In any case - they have limiters! )

Our advice - be darned careful in Wales at all times. You are labelled a yob if you overtake a tractor there - but it is OK if you happen to be Katie B tootling home at 15mph above the posted on clear empty road after the stint at the burger bar! (Ah! but it was not a BiB who copped her but a StUN civvie--- and on PH ... there isa STUNNING thread concerning civvies, speed guns and a village in Kent!)




ooops!



Yes - if in Wales and scammered! But yoou do not have excuse in Lancs if cyclist is cycling at 31mph on 30mph zone and you increase your speed to get by him. In Gatso land - you make cyclist feel pretty nervous as you decrease your speed and stay behind him!

This is the gem that one of the reps in Wildy's firm allegedly got from the bloke giving the spiel when he got his invite for 35mph in LanCASH£££re!



They have not read RoadCraft probably!

Personally, we would have held back in line of traffic at 60mph as limit was 60mph. But would have been ready to move at any point when road became NSL dual just to get the Space between us and bunched traffic.

The Mad lad and his Wild wifey!

You wrote:
It is horrifying that someone can write this and in the same post ask a question that shows complete ignorance of the law regarding speed limits. Why should Britain tremble?
Of course there is no provision for exceeding the speed limit for an overtake.


I write this because speed alone does not create the risk of an accident, bad risk assessment/bad driving at any speed causes accidents.

The car was a big brand new 04 beamer capable of safe speeds of 130mph, add a driver with clean licence, advanced driving skills and associated 11yr experience, good visibility, good road condition, clear straight road ahead and you get a safe overtake at a safe 75mph.

If the policeman didn't have the camera he would see nothing dangerous about the overtake but he removes his common sense as he picks up the camera.
I object to revenue making tactics and dangerous practice by hiding with a gun on a known overtake section.
Less experienced drivers would never have seen the gun wielding copper so the only way that would reduce speed related accidents would be by oncoming traffic flashing their lights. WHICH the police would try to nick you for.


I did my 999 driving course on this very section of road and we were doing over a ton along this very section under instruction by police drivers.

I do not judge a road by it's set speed limit OR MUCH CARE TO KNOW what speed limits are for different manouvres.
I judge a road by risk assessment for every single time I'm on it regardless of how well I know the road.
I then drive at an appropriate speed for that given assessment.


Are you trying to say that you never exceed the speed limit anytime?

If so do you drive your mum's metro and only on Sundays!

Jon

The examiner would have been a Class One - mine was! So was Wildcat's when she took it. But we took ours long time ago - in student days!

Depends on circumstances - if you are near to completing overtake and numpty you are overtaking decides to accelerate - may be safer to floor it and get past, return to lane and adjust to correct speed. If - you notice scammer - would not even bother with the overtake anyway! BiB 0n other hand would judge on circumstances of the overspeed blip - and providing normality had returned - would just regard it so! Or at least that is impression I get from In Gear, the BiBs I read on PH and other cops I know professionally and personally! No doubt Cous' himself will make some comment on his next perusal!




All the more pity we do not have the proper training. YET

Perhaps instead of whacking up scams all the time - simple advert campaign. Seem to recall a cartoon version years ago - would still work today as message is clear and memorable.

Remember it as asking whether or not it was sensible to try to overtake. It reminded people to check intention of driver behind you - is he trying to pass you and your numpty in front? Speed and length of vehicles in front of you? Oncoming traffic and speed? Layout of road - a hazard? Do you know the speed and performance of your own car? How much distance is in front of your overtake target? And all this in less than two minutes with comic cartoon figures (the air head, the petrol head, the boy racer, and the middle aged respectable professional pillock of society type) showing the dangers.

Was a schoolboy at the time and mid 40's now..classic stuff.. they don't make 'em like they used to! My Gosh! Must be feelin' me age!

Now Chumps - don't you think that is much better use of money than investment in scams, swanky offices for their fat bums, Noo Labia jobs for the Grauniad readers...?