Safe Speed Forums

I hope nobody minds me posting this but I'm at a loss as to what to do about an alarm/immobaliser that I had fit to my car about 6 months ago and wondered if there were any legal experts or anybody who can help. In a nutshell it is randomly going off occasionally(about once every 2-3 weeks) and Ive been witness to the fact it isn't wind/a motorbike/ball etc. Problem is that after its been on it usually gives me a flat battery. The auto electrian who fit it says it is a problem with my car - somethings draining the battery causing the alarm to go off. Mysteriously thought he can't find the drain, and neither can I(I know a bit about electrics, enough to do a drainage test). The members of the Capri club forum are at a loss to know what could be causing this, but I suspect its the alarm itself since its the only likely possibility - afterall Capri's are dead simple things when it comes to electrics!

What I need to know now is where I stand and whats the best course of action. The installer is insistant it's a problem with my car, but can't find a fault to fix. Should I take it to another electrian so they may impartially be able to test the alarm or fix the drain(assuming they can find it). If it was the alarm, which I strongly suspect it is - where would I stand in recovering the money paid to the garage who has diagnosed the fault? The alarm will be under warrenty, but the diagnostic from the second garage won't be and I'm concerned I could be significantly out of pocket as auto electric work isn't cheap.

Any suggestions guys? Any help would be much appriciated. Cheers.

RAC/AA ??

If there is an electrical fault on your car that is draining the battery, then tough.
If it is a faulty alarm (which it sounds like from your description seeing as you know how to use an ammeter), then your rights are as below:

When we buy NEW items, we are covered by the following Acts :

Sale of Goods Act 1979.
Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994.
The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.


Basically, you have the following rights :

If the goods do not 'conform to contract', IE:they must be as described, fit for the purpose and of satisfactory quality.

Much of the Law is subjective, but can be used in your favour, if you can apply it correctly.

It is ALWAYS the Seller NOT the Manufacturer, who is responsible to correct any faults.

There is NO set time in Law, whereby you are entitled to an automatic Full Refund. The Law just says, within a reasonable time. Also, if you have had some benefit from the product, that could be used to reduce any refund offered by the seller.

In English Law, there is a Six Year window for 'damages' and in Scottish Law it is Five Years from discovery. This means, that if the item proves to be faulty within the first Six Years, you are entitled to have the item repaired, by the seller at their expense. This is a maximum time limit not a minimum and will vary depending on the item and what would be deemed as reasonable. For instance, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect a watch battery to last 6 years, but totally reasonable for a TV or other similar home appliance.

If the seller refuses to repair the goods, then you will need to bring a case within the Small Claims Court, against the seller.

So, why buy an extended warranty, unless they offer something like in-home repair or a new unit in case of a fault. But if it is just to cover repairs, there is no need, you are covered in Law.

TIP:

When you purchase any item, always try to purchase the item using a Credit Card, as you are given extra protection under the Consumer Credit Act. Never use a Store Card, Debit Card or Charge Card, most of these offer no extra protection under the Act.


NOTE:
The above does not apply if you purchase items over the phone, by mail or over the internet.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Thanks, I suppose I have no choice but to take to another electrian to confirm the fault is with the alarm before I take any action with the installer. Hopefully he may see fit to refund the money of the diagnosis seeing as though he is insistant that it's my car that is at fault - but I guess theres no legal requirement for him to do so? I'm sure if it is confirmed that it is the alarm that is faulty then he will replace it without a quibble, I don't fancy going through the small claims court but I will if I have to.

It could still turn out to be a fault with the car, that's why I don't want to get too stroppy with the installer, afterall he's supposed to be the expert. But from my own testing with the help of the Capri Club I can't find a fault. To be honest I'll be just glad that it's fixed more then anything so I'll still be happy if it turns out to be a car problem.

Thanks again.

Does the bonnet on the capri hinge at the front or the windscreen? I had a problem with an alarm that kept going off. It turned out to be the bonnet switch was bridging when water dribbled down the switch and set the alarm off! It seems to be particularly common on front hinging cars. The bonnet switches supplied are pants. If it is the switch then either unplug it completely or add some diode type thing in there which will only complete the circuit when the connection is good enough ie the bonnet is opened rather than if the bonnet switch is just wet.

The other thing to do is to make sure all the ventilation vents are shut if it is an alarm that has sensitive ultra sonics. Try setting the alarm without the ultra sonics activated if poss and see how long it goes before going off again.

Is the battery/charging circuit up to scratch? A poor charge rate is exacerbated by driving in the wet with lights/wipers/heater on, but might be adeqate in summer - so becoming an intermittent fault.
It happened to a friend of mine, when he had a loose wire on his alternator. He only found the fault when the alternator packed up.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

How old is the battery? It might actually be self-discharging.

Absolutely! You beat me to it. Many alarms have a voltage sensor that detects the inevitable small voltage drop that takes place when (for example) the interior light comes on. There's a particular condition in oder batteries (I can't remember the chemistry) where small threads of solids may grow between the plates. When the thread meets the other plate it causes a momentary current flow and the thread is destroyed, but there's a small voltage drop as the thread gets zapped. The alarm thinks the small voltage drop is the interior light coming on and triggers.

So you might be getting spurios alarm triggering without any electrical fault on the vehicle at all. It could just be a characteristic behaviour of an older (and possibly slightly abused? I wish I could remember the chemistry) battery.

So borrow a battery and see if it stops.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

As I am in the battery industry I can shed a bit of light on this.

Alarms generally are provided with a small battery "on board" so that they can sound if the main vehicle battery is disconnected or the wires to the alarm are cut. The alarm detection of this condition is via voltage drop as noted above. This may be at an absolute minimum level or by rate of voltage fall detection (dV).

The phenomenon mentioned by Paul is dendritic growth of "whiskers" between the plates which are fused away by the discharge of current through them. However, this is not generally the cause of the voltage fall in old car batteries.

As a lead acid pasted plate car battery ages, active material is shed from the plates due to vibration and the volume change which occurs on charge/discharge cycling. This material falls to the bottom of the cell and forms a conductive mud which eventually rises to a level at which it touches the bottom of the plates and forms a parasitic short generally at a few tens of ohms. This discharges the cell and causes the rapid "self discharge" seen in old batteries.

Modern gas recombination designs do not suffer from this problem but are generally a lot more expensive. At one time it was an industry joke that the batteries sold with different length warranties were all the same but the longer guarantee types just had larger mud spaces.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

A friend who worked for Exide told me something similar - they used to virtually GIVE batteries to Ford, knowing they would only last effectivey 12 - 18 months, and would get the lucrative replacement sale.
Now you have indicated how this would be possible!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thanks again for the further replies! The battery was(and still could be) a strong candidate, but this will be the 3rd battery it has happened with. I replaced the first battery(was on when I bought the car in 2003) so immediatly replaced it. Bought a brand new one from a trade outlet and the same thing happened but I suspected it could have been a duff one so they exhanged it free. This seemed to cure the problem for a longer as it used to go off every other day until I got sick of it, with the new battery it lasted about a month before going off. It is being charged from the alternator at 13.8v which apparently is pretty good.

Both me and the installer are both confindant that it is a voltage drop that is causing the false alarms but he says something else is draining the battery and I think its the alarm. It could potentially be another duff battery, especially seeing as it proberbly from the same batch - but the 3rd attempt means its unlikely surely? Other then that then it could only be an intermittant drainage fault with the altenator or starter(Capri Club said either can break down internally and draw current.) Other items that are permenantly live such as the radio and boot light were disconnected until I got a false alarm- which I did. The completly random and intermittant nature points in the direction of an electronic device doesn't it? That just leaves the alarm now........ it would also explain why we can't find a current draw as obviously I can't activate the alarm to see how much it's drawing as it goes off and deafens me!

Cheers again for the replies, is much appriciated.

Wow. One great thing about these forums is you get to meet so many people who know 'stuff', but then again I'm a bit of a saddo for this type of 'techy' gen. I'll be able to baffle the guys at work with this knowledge - can pretend I knew it all along
We should start another forum, a SafeSpeed 'HowStuffWorks' where everyone can post fascinating snippets of info about what they work on/with.

Careful.... you'll get them arguing about camera shutters and flash synchronising next!!

I do think it would be great if we all shared what we do for a living, and used each others skills to help each other! I've got a consignment of steel punches and tools, as well as a lead block, which needs to get from Staveley Cumbria, to Southampton. Anyone going that way???

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Dendritic growth is set to become an increasingly large problem now that electronics is going lead-free. the lead-free solder can short out tracks by growing whiskers in this way under the etch resist of fibreglass PCBs.

Lead free solder - sacriledge

Next thing we'll be told is that cable jointers on old lead cables and plumbers merging copper to lead pipe can't use mole skins to wipe solder joints or use animal resin( flux) -the mole ( that little furry animal that messes up your lawn) is now an extinct creature. protected by the lib dems

You could always stockpile a stash of the genuine leaded article - I have several coils put by already, along with several tins of Ersin Flux, bakers fluid etc. for just such an eventuality!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Somebody just told me the Scamera partnership have got a shutter so fast, it can photograph a woman with her mouth shut!!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

ROTFLMAO

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Thats coz it spins so fast