Safe Speed Forums

I last drove an HGV back in the 1970s. Whilst driving for SPD, a Unilever company delivering food and such like, we had two Ford lorries with engines that were governed such that they wouldn't exceed 40 mph. It was a real pain driving them, particularly on roads like the A1(M) Stevenage bypass or the M1 into London. The Bedford TKs we had would do 50-55 so we did! One bloke, a lunatic on the road, had thrashed his so hard that it did 70 in a haze of blue smoke.
Later on I drove skip waggons for Biffa, when they were originally based at Gerrards Cross. You had no control over how much weight was in the skips so if you could lift it on you had to take it. I remember carrying one skip full of metal turnings going up the hill on the A40 at Tatling End at 20 mph belching black smoke - that waggon would have been a menace at over 40 mph. And we had serious traffic congestion then - before the majority of motorways had been built.

The 'Three lane system' has it's god and bad points, it's great on hills providing the down hill traffic is prevented from using the middle by means off double white lines, so the uphill traffic can pass any labouring vehicle, they use such a system in mountain roads around here and it works fine. I do however remember the terrible head on collisions on stretches of the A5 north of MK before they did away with it

On Look North last week (or week before...) they did an article on the A15 in North Lincolnshire. It's a dead straight road, but has, I believe, one of the worst accident rates in the county.

The reason is obvious to everybody, and they said so:

HGV's are stuck at 40mph and car drivers get frustrated and eventually overtake when they shouldn't, and crash.

Somebody from the council WANTS to raise the limit for HGV's on the road for a trial period to see if it helps, but they can't.

On the times I have driven on the A15, it does become a bit of a mare during an overtake, as not only are you concentrating on the overtake, but your also looking for the nice yellow boxes. (if your not local).

What a wonderful world we live in

It's amazing how many people are unaware that the HGV limit is 40mph. I was driving the other day with a friend of mine who is a keen driver and was moaning that this truck was doing 40mph on a wide, flat trunk road. "Well he is on the limt" I replied to offer some explanation.
"No he isn't, its a 60mph NSL road" he replied.
"But 40mph is the limit for trucks on single carriageways" I said
"What really? When did that come in? I didn't know about that!" was his reply!

Now if thats from a driver who takes an interest, I bet a good propotion of people aren't aware of it.

Should they pull over? Absolutly not. The differnce between them and tractors is that it is the law that is preventing them going faster, whereas for tractors its the limits of their vehicle. Frustrating though it is, its not the fault of the driver and he should not suffer a time and fuel penalty because of an unreasonable law.

If they have accumulated a long queue behind them, the Highway Code says they should pull over, and I would say this is common courtesy.

It especially applies on long single-carriageway trunk roads such as the A49 and A17.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well thats the problem in having a dual speed limit on a single carriageway road, and I agree it would be the curteous thing to do. If they have time then yes, that would be appropriate. However, I maintain that a driver should not be under any obligation to suffer a time/fuel/money penalty for adhering to the law - especially when it's going to be difficult for him/her to pull out again. Yes the highway code says you should pull over, but it also says you must not break the speed limit. The two seem to be in conflict with one another.

I would like to add that if a vehicle is struggling to attain the speed limit, and a queue builds up then yes they should definatly pull over. But to penalise someone for simply obeying the law strikes me as being grossly unfair.

Thanks for the many replies to the original question.

First off, let me say that I don't agree at all with the 40mph LGV limit. It's a recipe for frustration and with today's trucks, half of them can stop better than some cars. Maintenance is usually higher, and 90% of drivers are professional in their approach. After all, they're not on the road for pleasure.

I'm still in two minds about the whole "pulling over" thing - it's certainly not something I'd ticket for, and I appreciate the point regarding tachos and employers then pushing drivers not to stop. Perhaps education should be towards the operators and schedulers rather than the drivers.

Must admit, it's always good to get a different view - just spent Saturday driving for a mate of mine (as police driver I have an LGV licence and try and keep my hand in every now and then). Great fun....but a real eye opener for a colleague who'd never done it before...

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Never point a speedmeter at a civil or military aircraft, vessel or armoured vehicle. Many military aircraft, vehicles or vessels have target acquisition detectors, some of which initiate automatic counter measures.
Association of Chief Police Officers

But isn't the WTD going to exacerbate this problem still further? Apparently there is a shortage of some 40 000 drivers at present. Any effort to educate the operators would I feel be completly wasted. Not that I'm disagreeing with the emphasis of your message, its just in todays climate of rising wage costs and congestion, most operators are feeling under pressure. Unfortunatly I guess most operators would feel this was 'yet another burden on the beleaguered haulier'. Not that I completly subscribe to that view - there is still money in haulage despite what some hauliers like to tell you!

Sorry Cotswold but unfortunately even after the improvements in braking systems a heavily laden truck won't ever stop faster than a car. There is only a certain amount of traction available and there are load security issues with hard braking of any kind anyway. Fine if you're carrying rollcages or pallets in a box trailer or curtainsider but you really don't want to brake hard with a load of scaffolding tubes on the back or a load of sheet steel on a flatbed. Both are quite likely to come straight through your cab and no amount of straps or netting is going to stop it. Same deal for tankers-the surge of moving liquid in a tank is enough to break traction if you brake hard.
For 6 months of last year I was on the 44ton limit every day I drove (guinness trucks). It's quite rare to have to drive like this anyway as most of the time unless you're driving a tipper then its the area inside not the weight capacity that makes the difference. It's quite surprising how much brake fade and heat you get at this weight -even from just running down the m/way using the brakes to keep it down to 56 on downhill gradients.

A large proportion of the lorries on the road are simply not ALLOWED to stop unless in designated places by the operators as a security issue.
If you're ever in a Post Office or ANC truck then a driver can be disciplined for stopping away from your destination unless it is a legal requirement of the drivers hours regulation to do so. The PO operate under the British Domestic Hours system to allow for this. Their drivers are not even allowed to unlock the door for a police officer unless escorted to a secure police station first.


I do agree wholeheartedly with the operators and the schedulers being educated rather than the drivers. In about 30% of cases they don't give a shit about anything other than deadlines and profits. I've been ordered not to have legal break periods and to break the speed limit on many occasions-along with being ordered to drive without a tax disc and O-licence or in dangerously defective trucks. Funnily enough they get quite agitated when you tell them to f*** off as I'm neither stupid nor willing to risk my own life and licence by doing this.


WTD? What a complete crock of shit... again, designed to be used against the driver rather than the operator. I wonder how long it's going to take for governments to realise that the problem simply doesn't originate with the drivers but the operators wanting more and more. All it's done is screw up our few freedoms we have. For example, yesterday I was forced by the WTD to take a break in a portakabin in the yard with no facilities-yet 5 minutes down the road is a nice cafe where I could sit down and had a good meal and a drink. I'll assume that the enforcement of the WTD is going to be as anal and anti-driver as the enforcement (rather than the spirit) of Tacho law is. I've gone over hours on many occasions simply because there aren't any laybys with enough space in to stop-and it's quite a regular occurence to go for over an hour on an A-road without there being space to pull over a unit pulling a 45' trailer.

Ok...rant over

I have to say I don't agree with the 40mph limit either - at the end of the day, LGV drivers are 'supposed' to be some of the most well trained and educated drivers on the road. Surely then they are capable of deciding for themselves (as so many car drivers AREN'T) what the correct speed for the vehicle and conditions is?

When was the last time you saw someone pulling a trailer with a car doing 60mph on a single carriageway with a NSL?

As far as I'm concerned and from my understanding of the highway code, 'slow moving vehicles' are legally obliged to pull over to allow traffic to pass. The highway code's definition of a 'slow moving vehicle' is something travelling at 10mph or less (and yes I know you're a trafpol Cotswold, so you know all that stuff ) So from my point of view, no an LGV should not be obliged to pull over.

Yes I know its frustrating being stuck behind something doing 20mph less than the speed limits, but then that is the same if its an artic or George in his flatcap - and I don't see many old codgers pulled over in laybys letting the 2 mile que of traffic pass them!

At the end of the day, LGVs have to use the roads - otherwise the country would come to a stand still.

Oh, and incidentally the fixed scameras round here (on the A420 between Oxford and Swindon at Tubney Woods) actually measure whether the vehicle is an LGV or not, and even on a NSL road will nick an LGV at 40!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

HC Rule 145 says:

Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.

From the qualifier "especially", this does not apply exclusively to "large or slow moving vehicles". Therefore, if you are holding up a long queue of traffic, in whatever vehicle, you should pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass. It's also common courtesy.

There are signs on the A9 in Scotland encouraging drivers to do precisely that.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I'll be perfectly honest, I don't tend to get that frustrated when stuck behind a LGV because I know what a pain in the a$$ the can be to drive. I also appreciate that they have to move slowly for the general safety of everyone around.

What does get my goat is when car drivers move that slowly with no reason!

Your quite is accurate PeterE, but the phrase 'pull in where it is safe' pretty much contradicts the previous statement, because on most A roads its not safe for a LGV to spend 30 seconds doing significantly less than 40mph, that's assuming the driver can find somewhere that's actually LARGE enough to take a 60ft long vehicle in the first place. I'd rather the traffic was maintained at 40mph than have vehicles pretty mich stationary in the middle of the carriageway!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Since the government sets the rules, and tells many of us that 40 in a 30 is simply too FAST, then you have an argument that 40 is not classed as SLOW.
So now you're down to common courtesy, which if you were in this neck of the woods in summer, and you foolishly pulled over to let a queue pass, you would be there the next day!!
There is a weight limit on a bridge at Grasmere, whose only purpose is to force HGV's to use the A66 to reach North and West Cunbria - which is a bit tough on drivers who deliver materials to me at Staveley, and have to go back to the M6 in order to access Keswick. I think HGV and LGV's are persecuted enough, and they deserve the support of car drivers.

Regarding breaking systems, I think you have hold of the wrong end of the stick Nos4r2. You should'nt be sinking your fangs into Cotswold, his post made sense to me: I've added some emboldening to make it clearer...

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

If the speed limit is a (or even ) set by lollipop, rather than NSL, does the 40 limit still aply to HGVs? The Highway Code certainly implies that it only applies to NSL. Surely this makes the concept a joke.

I think it does still apply. Rule 103

I read that as saying that you have to take the limit of the road and the limit of the vehicle and use whichever is lower. So the truck has a single carriageway speed limit of 40, regardless of whether the lollipop says or .

Still a stupid restriction that could do with being revised.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

When was the last time a car driver (and yes I know not all fall into this category) paid some common courtesy to a lorry when it was trying to negociate a tight corner / roundabout / reversing menouver? And now we hear that there are plans in place to ban lorries from overtaking on a stretch of the M42?

I guess as usual the problem comes down to a lack of understanding on the part of the average car driver to the needs of LGVs.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

True, a lot of drivers seem to think that a HGV can go, stop and turn just like a car. Many don't seem to appriciate the effort it take to get a fully laden truck moving again after they have forced it to stop because the obstruction was on the HGV's side. That's why I try where safe and practical(i.e. not seriously disrupting the traffic flow) to let the HGV have priority, even if it should really be mine, especially so when the HGV(or bus/coach) is going uphill as per the highway code.

To go with that however, some HGV drivers must give a little appriciation that it is not only their journey that is important, but others are making important journies as well. Some drivers also must remember that car speedo's are not calibrated and so is difficult to know exactly when your on the limit. For example through motorway roadworks there are usually a few cameras and so I like to keep to the limit. Allowing for a little innacuracy I usually do an indicated 52/53mph(in a 50 zone) - but get frequently tailgated by HGV's.

That said the vast majority of HGV drivers are proffesional and most seem grateful when you have assisted them.

Capri2.8i I agree 100% with your post. I've lost count of the number of times I've been beeped at by another car driver for giving up my priority in order to leave room for a HGV!

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Well Sorry it took so long to answer but I orriginaly read the bit about Kate, laughed my self crazy and forgot

I drive acording to the type of road of course. A straight reasonable road that allows me to drive at the limit is fine, I am not recless It depnds on load type, and hazards etc. On an interstate highway I mostly drive 10 mph over the limit and the State troopers never bat an eyelid as I actually overtake them. I am usualy slowed by some idiot in a car sitting in the middle lane at exactly on or below the limit, I never tailgate or harrass anyone and keep a safe following distance.
Over the years driving trucks over here and back home I make the truck feel like an extention of my own body, I feel every bump, every slight difference, every adjustment in load and handling and drive the speed I feel safe at.
My point is that having two separate limits for cars and trucks is a recipe for disaster. When trucks etc drive slower than cars it creates fustration among the faster drivers, this in turn leads to accidents.
Truck drivers here are paid by the mile, which I must say I thing is very foolhardy as it encourages speeding.
As an example;- Today I left Glens Falls NY, did two deliveries in NJ the picked up 30 miles south east of Philladelphia, in order to do that run within the law (log book wise) I was doing over 70 mph whenever possible, I did a total of 658 miles in one days work, on exact calculation back in the yard in my 11 hours permitted driving I averaged 62 mph.
That amount of miles would be impossible in the UK. I had to spread the 14 hours total daily duty to 16 hours by taking 2 hours sleeper rest mid shift, the only problem with that is I have to then show 8 more hours in the sleeper before comming home .................. Yeah right

Here I am

The issue with trucks driving at 40 mph is that it is dangerous when other drivers get frustrated and overtake them at an inappropriate place. The solution is not to prosecute truck drivers that fail to pull over. I think it is unreasonable to say that a vehicle is travelling slowly, and so should pull over, when it's only constraint is the legal requirement to travel at or below that speed. Education, in my opinion, is far better aimed at car drivers in reminding them that the speed limit for HGV's on single carriageway roads is 40 mph. I don't think many car drivers are aware of this (Why should I care, I'm not driving one...?), and if the relevance was pointed out would at least then understand why they are being held up. If you did see that an HGV was holding up a queue of traffic, then I wouldn't see anything wrong with pulling them over and telling them that you are pulling them over solely to let traffic past, as there is a long queue and car drivers may be getting frustrated and tempted to overtake at a dangerous place, and that he/she hasn't done anything wrong, although you could point out the relevant section of the highway code. I'm not a lorry driver, so I don't know, but if that happened to me, I'd probably just be relieved that you weren't going to do me for anything. I guess that assistance in rejoining the carriageway would be helpful, and such an attitude might even help to restore some of the lost faith in the police force caused by speed cameras...