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 Post subject: Devon ex-cop comments
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 06:21 
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I found the following comment in an article on the BBC's website at http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/have_your_say/speed_cameras_01.shtml

Richard Evans, Wales wrote:
Speaking as an experienced but now retired Police officer, as far as speed cameras are concerned, I am both disgusted and ashamed with what is happening all over the country. There are far too many speed cameras sited in the wrong places, especially the Motorways where in most instances, they are not even required. At least when I stopped a member of the public for speeding, I was able to apply common sense and discretion, before deciding to either caution or report for summons. This is not the case with speed cameras, everyone suffers! I believe that the public in general are getting increasingly hostile towards the Police, especially when there does not seem to be more visible Police presence on our streets and roads. One would have thought that with the increasing use of speed cameras, thus releasing police officers from certain duties, the public would have seen more of the Police, but that is not so...Where have all the bobbies gone? As usual, the motorist is the easiest target, the criminals are almost always cautioned for the first offence, BUT the motorist suffers EVERY time. Consider the motorists who have already been disqualified from driving due to increasing penalty points, perhaps because they were driving slightly over the speed limit, perhaps in the early hours of the morning on a deserted stretch of road. They may have been using common sense and driving according to road conditions, time of day/night for instance but nevertheless, still penalised. How many I wonder have already lost their transport, livelihoods and are even now claiming from the Benefit Agencies as a result, straight from the tax payer’s pocket! Common sense seems to have gone out of the window. Public confidence in the Police is at an all time low and I'm sure that in the very near future, perhaps it is already happening, detection rates for criminal offences for instance will fall, due to the public refusing to help Police investigations. After all, why should they? Of course, these facts/figures may never come to light and even if they did, in high places, then they would not be revealed as a result of yet another Government 'cover up'.


I think this fellow just about sums up how I felt on opening my very own NIP for 35MPH in a 30 at the bottom of a hill dual carriageway. Why should I go out of my way to help the police in future?

Anyone else have a view on this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:49 
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A natural, highly understandable but most unfortunate reaction if taken into practice, which, hopefully, will be a transient recalcitrance. I've posted on here before about this at some length. It is a most unfortunate effect that we need to rise above. On the whole the police do a damned good job. One should separate out the cameras and their followers from the remainder of the BiB.

Having said that, I reported what I considered to be a dangerous load being driven in a dangerous manner from my mobile. Dialed three nines and reported it - and was almost accused of wasting their time by the desk jockey. I forget the circumstances exactly, it was a few years ago - but I do know I had very sketchy detail as I'd been behind it by about half a mile when we went our separate ways (M20/M25 I think). Because I couldn't give a number or make of vehicle I think they thought I was winding them up. Far from it of course and I wouldn't mind betting that the thing shed its load not too much further along. The desk jocky made me feel more recalcitrance than I think an NIP would. However, I got over it within a few days and would unhesitatingly report again in a rerun.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 16:39 
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PaulF wrote:
I found the following comment in an article on the BBC's website at http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/have_your_say/speed_cameras_01.shtml

Richard Evans, Wales wrote:
Speaking as an experienced but now retired Police officer, as far as speed cameras are concerned, I am both disgusted and ashamed with what is happening all over the country. There are far too many speed cameras sited in the wrong places, especially the Motorways where in most instances, they are not even required. At least when I stopped a member of the public for speeding, I was able to apply common sense and discretion, before deciding to either caution or report for summons. This is not the case with speed cameras, everyone suffers! I believe that the public in general are getting increasingly hostile towards the Police, especially when there does not seem to be more visible Police presence on our streets and roads. One would have thought that with the increasing use of speed cameras, thus releasing police officers from certain duties, the public would have seen more of the Police, but that is not so...Where have all the bobbies gone? As usual, the motorist is the easiest target, the criminals are almost always cautioned for the first offence, BUT the motorist suffers EVERY time. Consider the motorists who have already been disqualified from driving due to increasing penalty points, perhaps because they were driving slightly over the speed limit, perhaps in the early hours of the morning on a deserted stretch of road. They may have been using common sense and driving according to road conditions, time of day/night for instance but nevertheless, still penalised. How many I wonder have already lost their transport, livelihoods and are even now claiming from the Benefit Agencies as a result, straight from the tax payer’s pocket! Common sense seems to have gone out of the window. Public confidence in the Police is at an all time low and I'm sure that in the very near future, perhaps it is already happening, detection rates for criminal offences for instance will fall, due to the public refusing to help Police investigations. After all, why should they? Of course, these facts/figures may never come to light and even if they did, in high places, then they would not be revealed as a result of yet another Government 'cover up'.


I think this fellow just about sums up how I felt on opening my very own NIP for 35MPH in a 30 at the bottom of a hill dual carriageway. Why should I go out of my way to help the police in future?

Anyone else have a view on this?


This is clearly a good example of how we are seperating the emergency services from the population, because when this kind of thing happens we see it as 'them and us'. If we are to move forward and find the 'real' reasons as to why there is death and injury on the roads, then we have to stop the things that are making us bias (the above comment outlines this very well).
I know from experience that EVERYTIME we have a fatal or serious crash, the first thing the family will want to campaign for will be speed cameras. This cannot be an objective decision, being made from a grieving and distressed family, and although it goes without saying that the correct reason for the crash must be found, it is because of such publicity given by various sources, giving statistics about cameras, that these families believe that one more camera at the place their loved one died, will prevent another death. It is both frustrating and so wrong that these 'vunerable' people are feeling this way.
I hope would very much like a longer conversation with 'Richard Evans form Wales'. It seems that we have much in common, and maybe his imput in our area would make these families think.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 17:00 
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belladonna wrote:
I know from experience that EVERYTIME we have a fatal or serious crash, the first thing the family will want to campaign for will be speed cameras.


Yep. The government tells us that speed cameras are magic accident reducing machines. It's not surprising that folk want them. Shame it's lies.

Speed cameras have more in common with snake oil than road safety.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 19:33 
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I understand that a demonstration or parade of some kind has been organised in Cumbria, as part of a campaign to introduce a 40 mph speed limit on a road where three youngsters were killed.

We've met this kind of response before, but it is unlikely to do much good in my opinion. I don't know the circumstances of this particular tragedy so I'm not seeking to blame anyone in this case, but in general I doubt if young drivers out for a bit of spirited motoring would take much notice of such a limit anyhow. There are things that could be done to help them to stay safe, and I'd like to see that happening, but simply imposing a speed limit is not the answer.

There was a fatal accident some years ago on the A165 just south of Scarborough where a car left the road and overturned in a field, resulting in two or three deaths. Some local activist made noisy demands for a speed limit in that area but the North Yorkshire County Council local Traffic Department refused to introduce a special limit, and rightly so.

BTW, the system no longer seems willing to log me on automatically each visit. Any ideas?

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 20:17 
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TripleS wrote:
I understand that a demonstration or parade of some kind has been organised in Cumbria, as part of a campaign to introduce a 40 mph speed limit on a road where three youngsters were killed.

We've met this kind of response before, but it is unlikely to do much good in my opinion. I don't know the circumstances of this particular tragedy so I'm not seeking to blame anyone in this case, but in general I doubt if young drivers out for a bit of spirited motoring would take much notice of such a limit anyhow. There are things that could be done to help them to stay safe, and I'd like to see that happening, but simply imposing a speed limit is not the answer.

There was a fatal accident some years ago on the A165 just south of Scarborough where a car left the road and overturned in a field, resulting in two or three deaths. Some local activist made noisy demands for a speed limit in that area but the North Yorkshire County Council local Traffic Department refused to introduce a special limit, and rightly so.

BTW, the system no longer seems willing to log me on automatically each visit. Any ideas?

Best wishes all,
Dave.


Hi Dave,
You don't happen to have more details about this 'parade' in Cumbria do you?? I am interested to know who/ which group has suggested it. I personally do not know of this tragedy, but will try to find out more.
You are right. I doubt if it will do any good, as far as stopping another death. But people are vunerable when in grief and look for anything that will expalin why their accident happend. I see/hear it everyday. The trouble is, it is so hard to 'get through' to the families/friends, etc, when all they want is to find something/someone to balme, and the words they hear are " Well they drive up that road at all speeds" or " We should stop 'them ' going so fast before someone else is killed", " We should campaign for a speed camera, the goverment/statistics say, they make our roads safer".
The saddest thing is, these people are acting on grief, and desperation, not a good combination, and with all good will and intent, all they are doing is alienating other users on the roads, especially the younsters that we should be trying to re educate and help to understand what death/injury does.
I hate to say it, but until we are told the truth ref everything that 'might' be the cause of a RTC, people will believe what they are being told now.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 21:30 
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belladonna wrote:
It is both frustrating and so wrong that these 'vunerable' people are feeling this way.

Yep, and it's also the time that often their grief may be exploited by those who simply want a camera, and that goes beyond 'wrong' into distasteful.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 21:41 
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The parade was on Saturday - link here http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=260920
The calls for further monitoring of the road have been heeded, but the incidents are too spread out to be detected by anything other than a prolonged period of monitoring.
As it is a coast road, there are long straights, with pronounced bends, and an undulating surface. There is also debris thrown up by storms.
The trio mentioned in this incidence were unfortunate victims of the driver of the car they were in - but I doubt that they protested at the time. :(
Since the road stretches for several miles, I doubt a speed camera would be effective, unless placed every 100 yards or so.
The unfortunate relatives attending this rally would have been more effective had they required their 16 yer old offspring to account for their movements instead of allowing them to travel with 20 year old boy racers. :( EVERYBODY has a responsibility for road safety - it should not be heaped entirely on the motorist.

For this reason alone, Belladonna's organisation has a part to play in prompting parents to take more responsibility for their childrens actions.
Another course of action would be to provide a place where drivers could take part in go-karting type activities, where they could learn some basic road skills, and gain experience in relative safety, rather than on a dodgy bit of public road, where they place others at risk.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 20:23 
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[

For this reason alone, Belladonna's organisation has a part to play in prompting parents to take more responsibility for their childrens actions.
Another course of action would be to provide a place where drivers could take part in go-karting type activities, where they could learn some basic road skills, and gain experience in relative safety, rather than on a dodgy bit of public road, where they place others at risk.[/quote]

Thanks for the info, and alos all the details as to why the parade was done in the first place.
Yes, each and every accident is individual, and that is why we just cannot allow a speed camera to be placed at each spot, in the hope that it will prevent another tragedy.
I agree that RoadPeace has a 'part to play in prompting parents to take more responsibility for their childrens actions', and not just on the road!!
I will 'bring up' your comments at our next local meeting, but will also pass this onto head office to reflect upon.
It is just this kind of imput from people that helps us all to access the right kind of 'education/ information that will help to save lives.
Thanks again.

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