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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 05:05 
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The Transport Committee has finally published our memorandum on road pricing:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 18we58.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 05:46 
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Examining the other memorandums is a very worrying experience:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 18we01.htm

No one else at all seems to be examining the issues properly.

I didn't find anyone else talking about congestion tending to self regulate for example. Without that basic view, how on earth do they hope to evaluate the DIFFERENCE between road pricing and no road pricing?

What on earth is going on? They know better but they have agendas?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 09:12 
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Firstly

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Paul. This must now get the issue at least tabled wider, I think?

Secondly
Quote:
They know better but have agendas?
Yup. They need to somehow get a tax-per-mile system in place to supplement the fuel taxes as these get reduced by alternatives. To do this on the petext of a green issue is altogether less unpallatable to Mr & Mrs Average. They will play on that.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 21:53 
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Sorry Paul, all these memoranda is simply a snow job, about the only organization that hasn't contributed is the "Toilet seat manufacturers association", and thats where most if not all these memoranda will go.
The polli's have got much better things to do with their time than looking at all these papers, like taking 80 days holiday, and making sure their pay and pensions are rich enough.
Your memo is well written, well presented and well researched, which is nothing less than I would have expected, but because it is speaking from the common sense side, it is bound to be ignored.
I'm sorry if I sound downbeat, but after the last couple of weeks in this country and the way the polli's have played the game, I despair for the future of my children, I don't think they have a future.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 13:04 
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On congestion:

whoever or whatever controls that use of our roads needs a good kick up the backside, just as a rough guess I would say at least 50% of local congestion is directly linked to bad road management such as:

Roadworks poorly planned and managed

Poor local planning of infrastructure

Traffic "calming" schemes

Lack of new roads and bypasses

Local planners without the will to stand up against the loony lobby

HGV distribution points not placed in out of town locations meaning Huge lorries squeezing down small streets etc.

Lack of penalties for roadworks overdue completion

Lack of communication between utility companies and road planners

Parking spaces sold out in most towns



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 13:24 
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I thought that they had tried to sort out the Roadworks problem with Fines for overrunning the completion date. Consequences? Obvious really, the subcontractors increase the estimated time for the roadworks to be completed, and then make sure that they meet their estimates with careful resource allocation; why do you think the majority of roadworks in the UK have nobody working at them?

Typical New Labour target driven nonsense - wrong answer to wrong question.

To get rid of road works as quickly as possible they need to place contracts such that the time for completion is agreed between experts on both sides but with a sliding payment scale - come in on schedule you get paid the contract amount, come in late and you get paid the contract amount or even suffer penalties, complete early however and you get bonuses, the earlier you finish the bigger the bonus. The duration is based on previous durations for similar work. However this means being prepared to pay more for a better service...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 15:14 
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Rewolf wrote:
To get rid of road works as quickly as possible they need to place contracts such that the time for completion is agreed between experts on both sides but with a sliding payment scale - come in on schedule you get paid the contract amount, come in late and you get paid the contract amount or even suffer penalties, complete early however and you get bonuses, the earlier you finish the bigger the bonus. The duration is based on previous durations for similar work. However this means being prepared to pay more for a better service...

It needs another clause. Penalties for when the road isn't repaired properly and they have to come back and do it again. That recent TV program on road quality mentioned this, but IIRC they said that Devon are the only local authority bothering to do it since it means sending someone out to check each and every hole that's dug.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 17:08 
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I agree with that too, but it shouldn't mean checking every one, only a reasonable sample along with monitoring the public complaints to the local authority roads department.

It the government again - they take the motorists taxes in centrally, then use it for other things rather than distributing it for maintaining the Roads.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 17:20 
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Eventually it should be sufficient to check only a sample of repairs, but I think that TV program said that Devon were finding over a third of repairs were unsatisfactory. Or was it more than that? Anyhow, if that's typical :shock: . Thing is though, IIRC Devon were fining the contractors responsible for shoddy repairs, which could offset the cost of checking them all.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 17:28 
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Rewolf wrote:
I thought that they had tried to sort out the Roadworks problem with Fines for overrunning the completion date.
...

This doesn't get round the appalling planning for some roadworks.

Last Friday evening i made the journey from my village (5 miles SE of chesterfield) to the centre of sheffield. I normally take the A617 into ch'field, then the A61 all the way into sheffield.

Except that the A61 has been closed in both directions at the stretch between Tesco and Mc Ds. The diversion took you into town and round the 'donut', if you could get that far. I gave up and ended up on the M1 up to j32, except that there were also roadworks on the M1 southbound , so that anyone travelling south between Sheffield and ch'field had the choice between a severely congested M1 or an equally congested chesterfield, both with major roadworks for the entire night!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 18:22 
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I don't intend to go into details but believe me I've had first hand experience of Devon CC's attempts at enforcement of the S74 charges.

Devon CC took on additional inspectors with the belief that the fines and charges would more than cover the cost of the additional enforcement inspectors. Does anyone on this site have any examples of where the enforcers of regulation are paid for by the fines they reap?

I won't say any more for fear of libel.

However, it is certainly not in the interests of the contractor or the utility concerned to prolong operations for obvious economic reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 19:34 
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civil engineer wrote:
Does anyone on this site have any examples of where the enforcers of regulation are paid for by the fines they reap?

Yeah, about forty-some odd camera partnerships! :twisted: :evil:

Seriously, expecting to have costs offset by fining contractors is one thing, but if, as you say, they're actually aiming to make money on top of that it's a little worrying. OTOH should we be surprised given the pressures over council tax coming both from residents and on high? However, the immediate concern is whether road repairs on Devon's main roads are now being done better than other similar areas.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:47 
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I'm not sure if there was an actual profit motive, however it was intended to be at least cost neutral and the inspectors were aware of where their wages were paid from.

Some contractors need a stick but we didn't and in fact DCC's approach hampered things.

The enactment of S74 of NRASWA was fairly new then so I imagine DCC and others have modified their approach since.

However the problems of absolute adherrence to regulation that are associated with SCP's certainly appear in S74.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 15:26 
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Quote:
Electronic Toll Collection in Europe and Its Implications for Telematics
DUBLIN, Ireland--Aug. 1, 20055, 2005--Research and Markets (http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/c22524) has announced the addition of An Introduction to Electronic Toll Collection in Europe and Its Implications for Telematics to their offering

This report provides an introduction to the current status and future trends for Electronic Toll Collection (ETC) in Europe. In-line with core competency, the potential impact of ETC on driver information telematics services is highlighted throughout.
The report provides a basic overview of the generic ETC technologies and charging concepts. It identifies the technical, operational and contractual obstacles to international interoperability and assesses the potential for the EC's proposed European Electronic Toll Service.
The European ETC industry has a poor reputation for interoperability, even for a single technology such as DSRC. This, together with the challenges of integrating new technologies and overcoming cross-border contractual issues, suggests that the EC's target of a single ETC box, with a single contract and a single invoice will be very difficult to achieve.
These factors, together with the likelihood that GSM/GPS-based tolling systems will not be fitted to cars. for at least the next 7-10 years suggest that the telematics industry can limit its interest in ETC to a research, rather than product, level for the foreseeable future.


Without the technology the strategy is a non-starter. Not a lot of confidence expressed here... :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 22:28 
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On the subject of congestion being its own disincentive to drive at busy times, I personally agree and take that approach myself, as I hate driving on busy roads, but to give an example of an alternative view, a colleague of mine drives to Wales at the weekend very often, and he always sets off straight after work on a Friday. His argument is that no matter how busy it is, he will still get to his destination sooner by setting off straight away than travelling later at a quieter time, and his time of arrival is all he cares about, not his journey duration. People like this are not motivated by avoiding congestion, but congestion charging could affect his choice of travelling time.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 22:51 
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Although, I'd say, given the choice, he'd rather set out earler in the day - except he has to wait till he's finished work.
I leave home at 7:00 every morning and get to work an hour and a quarter before I really have to. That way, I miss the bulk of the traffic - and am also able to leave for home earler in the afternoon and so score there as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 00:20 
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stevei wrote:
On the subject of congestion being its own disincentive to drive at busy times, I personally agree and take that approach myself, as I hate driving on busy roads, but to give an example of an alternative view, a colleague of mine drives to Wales at the weekend very often, and he always sets off straight after work on a Friday. His argument is that no matter how busy it is, he will still get to his destination sooner by setting off straight away than travelling later at a quieter time, and his time of arrival is all he cares about, not his journey duration. People like this are not motivated by avoiding congestion, but congestion charging could affect his choice of travelling time.


Certainly there are all sorts of motivations - if they were doing the science properly, one of the first things they should have done was to properly gauge those motivations. I'm confident that most people are already quite strongly motivated (by travel time) to 'work around' congestion where possible. If most people have such a motivation, then the main point is that road pricing - at best - will simply add 'a little something' to an existing regulatory mechanism.

I personally (and intelligently!) guess that the most we would manage with road pricing is to offset two years' traffic growth. After two years, you're back where you started, but you have the admin overhead for ever.

I find it amazing that they estimate the monetary value of congestion based on travel delay at £20 billion - then go on to imply that making a charge will 'cure congestion'. Surely they should understand that the 20 billion estimated cost of congestion is ALREADY a 'congestion charge' that regulates congestion?

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