Safe Speed Forums

With harebrained schemes like this going up everywhere, it's little wonder that road deaths are on the up.
You cannot make roads safer by slowing people down, by increasing the danger - and, in cases like this, forcing people to stop increases the danger even more.
It's only a matter of time before someone ends up crushed underneath the wheels of a lorry.

Cheers
Peter

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I've been involved in two collisions in the last ten years, and both were running into the back of the car in front. The first was at a roundabout where I was coasting forward at about 2 mph looking to see if there was time for me to go as well as the car in front. (There was a large gap in the traffic.) Except that the car in front hadn't moved. No damage that time. The second was turning right out of an estate road. I was second in line. The driver in front pulled away. I engaged first, and started to move forward, whilst looking to see if there was time for me to go as well. Except that she had almost immediately aborted the manoeuvre. Smashed bumper and light cluster, and insurance job, this time.

The moral. Never assume that the driver in front will move off even if the road is clear. Also never take your eyes off them. They may change their mind for no obvious reason.

The roundabout that botach mentions in nuneaton is very busy with LGVs as Lynx and UPS are very close. The LGV drivers can see over the mounds of earth, and so know the road is clear when the car driver in front has to slow.
I have witnessed one accident and a near miss in these circumstances over the last few months.

Well the answer is obvious then - we need even higher barriers to prevent truck drivers seeing over the top!

And why not just sort out the lack of hedge rows while you are at it, and make all roadside verges a wall of vegetation at least 15' high, because that will force drivers to slow down won't it, and that must make the roads safer?

It's funny how something that used to be considered to be a serious road safety hazard - the restriction of visibility, has somehow become a "safety feature", but perhaps we shouldn't be surprised really given that threatening distractions (scams) are now a road safety tool, and disastrously uneven surfaces and artificial obstructions are traffic calming.

M271 southbound nursling junction saw two teenagers die last winter on an exit road. two weeks ago a motorcyclist sheared off the front end in a accident. still they haven't cut down the 10ft high shrubs. you can't even see the signs map

The centre of the roundabout overhangs the kerb by 1m and restricts vision, prevents planned entry onto the roundabout. It turns a an ordinary roundabout into a nightmare

Okay, I gave up on e-mail and just rang Wiltshire County Council. After some too-ing and fro-ing on the phone they confirmed that it's the HA. They gave me a phone number for someone called Interroute... don't know if they're a company that the HA contract work to or what, but they said they're responsible for work and maintenance there. The lady I spoke to gave me her e-mail and said she could take FOIA requests and pass them on, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go straight to the HA.

Whaddya think?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

If the HA are responsible, let's send it to the HA.

The questions is: "What. exactly, is the justification for the restricted visibility scheme at [...]

Please provide:

1) Scientific evidence and evaluations of this scheme or similar schemes.
2) Historical road safety data for the scheme, and any historical road safety data for similar schemes that were considered when decisions were taken.
3) The contact details for the individual responsible for the scheme
4) A list of the individuals and organisations who approved the scheme as a road safety measure."

I don't mind who sends this (and I'd welcome any suggested improvements).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Okay, I'll go for it. WTH, I've never done one before. I'll draft something now.....

.... watch this space.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Very rough draft:

Name
Address
Phone nos
email

FOIA request

I am writing for information on the A303 / A345 Countess Roundabout in Wiltshire, which I understand falls under the remit of the Highways Agency. Specifically I am interested in the wooden panels that have been put up on the central reservation of the A303 on the east and west bound approaches to the Countess Roundabout sometime in the last year. I am concerned that it is no longer possible for motorists to adequately plan an approach to the Countess Roundabout as their vision of traffic already on the roundabout is now obscured by the panels. Therefore I would like to know the following:

• For the sake of clarity I would be grateful if you would first tell me the correct term for these panels.
• When did the installation of the panels take place?
• What exactly is their desired purpose and how will they achieve it? In other words, I would like to know the thinking and theories behind the installation.
• What evidence is there that they will achieve that purpose? Has the same treatment achieved the desired effect in the past? If so, when and where?
• What potential road safety problems have been identified as regards the use of these these panels at junctions and roundabouts in general, and at the Countess Roundabout in particular, prior to the installation of the panels?
• Have any safety problems resulting from the panels become apparent since installation?
• What prompted the installation at the Countess Roundabout? (E.g. if it was on safety grounds please supply the crash history that justified the installation, if it was for noise suppression please give the before and after noise levels in the affected are, etc.)
• Is the installation expected to be permanent or temporary in light of earlier plans for the Countess Roundabout to be made into a grade separated junction as part of the improvements to the A303 in the StoneHenge area?
• Finally, I would like to know how many other similar installations on junctions and roundabouts currently exist or are planned, and their locations.

I would prefer for the information to be supplied via email.

Please service this Freedom of Information Act request.

Kind regards etc

Gatsobait

Comments, alterations, additions, suggestions?

Edited: added 2 more questions myself about whether any potential safety problems were identified prior to installation, and whether anything has been identified since.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Looking at the answer Patch got - exactly the same as given out on radio for the roundabout on the A444 where the A444 meets the B4113 (Grif island)
Funnily enough WCC had just upgraded this one to speed up traffic.
Haven't seen any others locally like it, not even on the same road.

That letter looks superb. Well worded, to the point and there should be no confusion with what you're after.

One change I would make is sign your real name in there instead of signing it as Gaisobait!

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www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

Who says that Gatsobait isn't my real name? My parents could have been influenced by the Frank Zappa school of baby names.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Folks, if no-one has any more thoughts about anything else to include on that draft FOI request I did two or three posts up I'm going to send it off as is later this afternoon. But I've never done one before so I'm hoping for some input from those who have. Things like wording, whether I've left them room to wiggle out of giving a straight answer, should I ask for more specific info (e.g. crashes and their causes at the roundabout for the last X years), stuff like that basically.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

My advice? Don't jump straight in with a FOI request.

Try the softly softly approach first, and if you don't get anywhere, then try the more formal route.

Also address the letter to the Chief Executive in London. That way, the letter becomes a "treat officially" and is dealt with quicker and by more senior people.

Finally, copy in your MP.

millsee, I have already spoken to someone on the phone about it. They were helpful but didn't really know the roundabout and couldn't possibly be expected to answer all the other questions. And when I said I wanted to make an FOI request they didn't seem at all bothered by it.

When you say address the letter to the Chief Exec do you mean cc or directly? I was going to email them at the link provided on their website - for one thing I know it'll get there whereas unwelcome letters can be mislaid or lost in the post . For another it seems only fair to make the FOI request the way they want at least to kick off with. If the response isn't satisfactory then I can see that sending it to the Chief Exec is worthwhile, but is it worth going to the top until after the normal route has failed?

I don't think there's any point in cc-ing my MP. It's miles away from me, so he might wonder why I'm badgering him about something nowhere near his constituency. I don't think a copy to the MP in that area from someone who isn't currently, never has been and almost certainly never will be a constituent is going to get too far either. It just happens to be a rooundabout that I've used a few times in the last year on my way to and from Devon.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

OK fair enough. My perception is that you tend to get people's backs up with a FOI without a polite request initially. If you definitely want to go that route, use the HA's form and follow the procedure on their website:

http://www.highways.gov.uk/aboutus/corp ... /index.htm

When I was at the HA, Chief Exec letters were dealt with from the top down. The senior civil service always want to get their names known to the CE so deal with the letters themselves. Address it directly to him. Send the FOI and a letter together.

MPs also tend to get things done with the civil service. I didn't realise you didn't live in the same constituency as the roundabout. I would however, still copy in your MP who has a duty to your welfare.

Bombs away. I may have left it too late for an acknowledgment if they tend to shoot off early on Fridays, but I'm assuming now nothing will be done till next week anyway. We'll see what they say.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Hi. Not had time to properly read all the posts on this thread (so apols if this is off-topic or has been covered)...

Exactly the same thing was done (probably rather longer ago - 2,3 maybe 4 years) at the approach to the roundabout at which the Northbound M50 meets the M5. Bloody irritating it is too, given that there was previously masses of visibility and anyone half awake could perfectly sensibly avoid side-swipes or rear-enders just by looking where they were going (challenging concept out there, I know). Someone somewhere in the HA should have some data on this one, why it was done, and if it's really reduced the risks at that location. Which should have been negligible to start with given that the M50 is one of the few motorways in the country that isn't constantly choked with traffic...

Thinking about the general topic, there's an aspect of it that really worries me.

Suppose I'm on the roundabout and for whatever reason someone approaching the roundabout is going to fail to give way. He might be tired or distracted or something. With normal visibility I'm well placed to recognise he's approaching too fast to stop and take my own avoiding action. With the visual barrier I lose the chance to avoid the crash.

Another worrying aspect is that moving vehicles on the roundabout may on occasion be critical in helping a less observant or distracted driver that there's a roundabout ahead. With the visual barrier he has less chance of correctly itentifying the roundabout as such and I expect this will lead directly to crashes.

On the other hand I do believe that there will be times and places where slowing drivers on the approach to a hazard may well reduce crashes. I don't know where the balance lies, and I would be quite surprised in the HA do.

On balance I guess the scheme is completely barking with no science to support it.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We have an example of this zero visibility system at the end of a dual-carriageway on the outskirts of Belfast that terminates at a roundabout. It was installed about a six months ago I think.

The sequence of engineering measures went something like this:

1. Put 50cm wide thermoplastic stripes every 4 metres across the road for 100 metres before the roundabout.

2. Whoops, people are having problems stopping in the wet!

3. Install shell-grip for last 15 metres so that people can stop again.

4. Hang on a minute, the shell-grip is making drivers too confident about their approach to the roundabout, so...

5. Erect a fence so they can't see what's coming from the right.

Result: Budget exhausted, thus ensuring increased budget for next year when presumably they will be able to hire more headless chickens to spear-head their latest programme of stupid ideas.