Safe Speed Forums

Following on from a brief mention by PeterE, I was wondering what people's thoughs were on the extension of opening hours for pubs and clubs? Personally I am in favour, but according to some polls I'm in a minority. The reason I'm in favour is because the current rules are very old-fashioned and aren't working. Currently when I do venture out into the pubs and clubs of Burnley there is just a mass of people trying to get drunk as quickly as possible and then everybody staggers out at 2am all trying to get fed and get a taxi. However, as I'm sure is not unusual, there is simply not enough going around. This is when the trouble starts, as people are hanging around waiting and some decide to fill this time in by fighting.

By allowing some premises to open longer, this chucking out time is extended and so relieves the pressure on the local taxi drivers. It also means fewer people are hanging around in the town centre. Thats the practical argument I think.

The other side of it is that I think it's rather stupid that you can't get a drink when you want. I don't believe 24 hour boozing will ever be widespread, but where there is demand pubs and clubs should be able to cater for this. Yes there is a problem with rowdy behavoir from some people, but surely the answer is to tackle those that are causing this? I don't see why I as a responsible drinker should be penalised for the actions of an unruly minority. Perhaps more their should be more emphasis placed on the owners of the bars to be more responsible in who they serve to? If someone is clearly out of it, then they have a duty not to carry on serving - but too often this is ignored.

Does anyone believe we will be able to adopt 'contienental style' drinking practices?

1) for - used to drive taxis in younger years so think it's a good idea - might stagger( good pun) the kickout times a bit and stop congregations at the taxi rank.Might mean less of a crowd for BIB to push toward taxis -easier to control --smaller crowds ,and quicker clearout of the taxi ranks.
Thats for those that go for a sensible night out. - Might make Brits start pacing themselves and know when to stop- BUT only if the streets are made safe enough for a line female to walk alone.
2) The drink till they drop lot - means that they've got longer to drink- given that the pubs stil serve them

On the whole - like it , specially as sometimes i work late -midnightish, am off next day - means i and Mrs B can go out for a drink when i finish - so on the whle, unless spoiled by the yob element a good idea.

After a while I think people will spread out their drinking and adopt a more relaxed approach if they have more time. Very often now, the approach of closing time is a reason to get another round in quick.

When afternoon closing was done away with in the mid-80s, there were dire predictions that the streets would be full of drunks by 7 pm, but it just didn't happen.

But the police and local authorities will need to be keener to clamp down on those establishments (and we all know which they are) which are associated with trouble.

Most pubs are trouble-free, most pubgoers are well-behaved, but it is a minority that spoils it for the rest. And if you treat people like naughty children, it is hardly surprising they behave like that - something that applies to road traffic law too.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I still have reservations!

I stayed in my mates flat in town and we watched the two o'clock madness for an hour from a balcony. 500 merry/noisy/leery people walking through a quiet street followed by police which seamed to spark a lot of confrontation.

hopefully this would be defused over a few hours and groups would leave when they had had enough or fall asleep in the club

the other risk is that they would be going home drunk when the rush "hour" starts at 6am. it may be a disaster for road deaths

I do think it has been a disaster for anyone who lives in earshot of a pub or club. They used to shut at 11, then 2am but now it will continue all night

I am suprised it was not trialed in one city to see the outcome before imposing it on the whole country. I hope it works , but fear it may be a disaster.

Also:



But will it stagger the chucking out time? I suspect not - at least not for the 'vertical drinking' establishments whose sole objective appears to be to purvey as much alcoholic beverage as possible to as many as possible - and who cares if they're totally Brahms and Liszt.

If one of these (and they usually are like buses - always a group) chooses to stay open longer than the others, guess where the drinkers will go when the majority close? So, I suspect you'll find that rather than staggered closing, you'll still get them all closing within a short window even if this is later than today (4am, 5am, 6am??). The problem won't change, just the timing.

Just my thoughts based on a PhD in both Pure and Applied Cynicism and observation of life over a number of years.

Cheers, Chris B

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Stultus est sicut stultus facit - a known fact
Stercus accidit - a truism!

aren't we all adults?

I think the most dangerous unintended consequence of this law is likely to be that with later times to finish drinking, there will be more people on the roads the next morning driving to work over the limit.

Employers are not going to let people get in later because they can stay in the pub until 3am.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

Whether it will actually cause increased alcoholic violence is questionable. Some have said it may well just spread out the violence throughout more of the night, which is why some police officers are against it. Usually they have two surges (or so Im lead to believe), the surge when they come out of the nightclubs and then the domestic disturbances of when they finally reach home.

In my opinion regulated hours of drinking has created this problem of binge drinking but it doesn’t necessarily follow that relaxing the drinking hours is the solution.

In the continent peoples general view of a night out completely differs from ours and their city/town centres are catered for this. They have late night theatres, cinemas, restaurants, coffee shops and sports centres where people do a whole different range of things.
What we have in our city centres is an infrastructure set-up by the breweries and club owners dedicated to getting as much cheap drink down peoples throats. To me the problem seems that people drink far too much, at what time in the night they do this seems inconsequential.

However its also other things in the continent like shops, arcades, acadamys etc also remain open. In the times I’ve been to Spain to various costal resorts places like shops, markets, sport centres remain open late into the night compared to this country where everything shuts by six.

In short I think most people are against it, not because they fear of increased violence but because they want real measures to try and curb binge drinking which I’m afraid this does not.

Britain has a completely different culture and attitude towards alcohol than do our southern European cousins. Extending the licencing hours is a great idea to the socially responsible and in a perverse manner, to the irresponsible as well.
If the vision of a post licencing hours reform is people, who would otherwise be indulging in projectile vomiting in Woolworths doorways, sitting nursing a glass of Chardonay outside all night tavernas then forget it! We need a massive cultural change, an attitude paradigm shift towards alcohol, if anything is to change to prevent the mayhem many town centres experience these days.

I think it's a sensible idea, for the reasons Capri2.8i mentions. However, apparently it is the case that almost no premises have taken up the new licences. The reason being that they are allowed to keep their old licence for £10/year or something, but to get a new one would cost them several thousand a year.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I think the government should be alot harsher on establishments who discount alcohol, after all, people have finite resources and cannot afford to drink all night every night.

Also, I would prefer to go out for a meal before heading off to the pub, the way licencing laws are currently set up, most of the pubs are shut by the time I've finished eating.

How about coffee bars, were I live their all shut by 7pm. There have been many times where I've walked out of a pub at 11pm and fancied a cup of tea or coffee and a chat with my mates, but all I'm left with is 'too-loud' night-clubs that cost 6quid to get in and give me a headache.

In most areas, it's the council planning office (or the powers that they are granted) that are the problem. In Swansea, Wind Street was meant to be the cafe quarter...crap, it's now a road of theme pubs with the odd restaurant. If they stuck to their guns things would be different. It's the same story in Cardiff, St Mary's street is pub after pub after pub. No wonder theres a drinking culture...blame the powers that be who created it.

I think that problem is more down to high prices. Not of alcohol, although it is taxed very heavily already, but rather of houses. If the price of housing is so high that you cannot see any way that you could ever afford one, then you give up with the idea and look for other ways to spend your money - without a house there is much more incentive to go out, I certainly did while renting a small room in the London area. Then you meet up with loads of other people in a similar situation, and drown away your problems with drink. Not even a new problem - the same was true with Gin back in Victorian times. Once I had a house (thanks to grandparents contributing to deposit and work relocation paying all expenses even when moving from rented), then with the additional financial burden, and the greatly improved potential for entertaining myself at home (6 rooms all to myself, lawn to mow, decorating to do, etc), then my going out to get drunk went down dramatically. Nowadays as a middle aged (40 soon) grumpy old man, I almost never go out, and when I do, the extortionate prices put me off. We buy wine and beer in quantity from abroad and get drunk at home occasionally with friends.

At the risk of bring out the "When I were a lad you could get 15 pints and a Fish and Chip supper and still go home with change from a sixpence" anecdotes, I remember the days when £1/pint seemed very expensive.

God forbid we should pay a reasonable price for a drink! Why punish those who can drink responsibly by artificially raising prices to combat the problem of those who drink to excess? (Concerned student speaking here!)

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

Another thought - are then any cases where high taxation have really done that much to reduce public (as opposed to commercial) consumption?

Petrol? Not at all, people cut down on other things first.
Tobacco? Well use is coming down now, but I don't think price is the reason - everybody I know has packets with "Rokers sterven jonger. Les funeurs meurent prematurement. Raucher sterben fruher" written on them.
Alcohol? 'Nuff said

Yeah, very good point: historically, taxing something or - thinking of prohibition here - making it illegal does not significantly affect the demand.

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

I think Rewolf makes a very good point about why their is such a culture of binge drinking but I think their are others. I think one of them is the fact we seem to work much longer hours then our southern European friends. While this maybe good for our economy, it's not so good for the culture. As I'm sure many people on here can relate to, after a hard week at work(aren't they all?!) there is nothing better then a few beers to relax. Problem is some people take this too the excess. Also, I now think it is a very easy transition from soft-drinks to alcopops. They taste the same! Compared to drinking beer, it's much easier for young people to get a taste for alcohol. Not sure what should be done about this, as think the drinking age is correct at 18, don't agree with the calls to raise it.

I think we all agree that once people have left a club it is best to get them home as soon as possible, the longer they are hanging around the worse the problem is. So a solution in my opinion would be to have more night buses. Whenever I've been out in Manchester or London with friends we've left the club and jumped on bus. No waiting around for taxis with the huge queues and I think only cost about a £1. With the staggered closing times I think more towns should consider this. Not sure how the bus operators feel about it, but if it works in Manchester and London I can't see why it can't work elsewhere.

Whilst we all talk about the problems caused by drinkers( binge etc), lets not forget that part of the licence demands that the seller does not sell if he/she thinks that the buyer is intoxicated ( is that right legal people), and this is a requirement of the person selling, not the establishment.
How many pubs adhere to this policy, and what is done to ensure compliance - let alone back employees.

Sorry, I was misunderstood. I am not advocating increasing the cost of alcohol, it's the 2 for 1 offers, doubles for the price of singles, £10 to get in and all you can drink that I think encourages binge drinking.

My other tongue-in-cheek suggestion is to ban lager and cider! If all you could get is real ale, dark and stout the world would be a much nicer place

Seriously, my wife banned me from drinking Stella years ago, cos she thought it made me aggressive when I was drunk, these days I don't touch any kind of lager.

Stella is renowned as being a violence-inducing drink, though! You're missing out on some tasty beverages if you're banned from lager. I'd heartily reccommend Young's Pilsner - so fruity and flavoursome. Mmmmm. Unfortunately they don't sell it up here!

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-mike[F]
Caught in the rush of the crowd, lost in a wall of sound..

It isn't called "wife beater" for no reason.

I think there will be a bedding-in period while people get used to actually having to take responsibility for their own actions and in the long term things will settle down to better (or at worst the same as) the current situation.