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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 08:40 
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www.timesonline.co.uk/driving
Latest motoring news and car reviews

September 06, 2005

'It makes you realise how easy it is to go fast'
By Ben Webster
DEBBIE ATACK was convinced she was a law-abiding motorist until she tried driving with intelligent speed adaptation. She found the system was constantly sending her reminders that she was trying to break the limit.

“It was a very strange feeling having the brake pedal lower beneath my foot without me applying any pressure. I didn’t take much notice of speed limit signs before but the system beeps as you change into a different limit.”

Ms Atack, 36, from Garforth, Leeds, was one of 20 volunteers who drove an ISA-equipped Skoda Fabia for six months. “It took a bit of getting used to, especially on the ring road which has a 40mph limit which everyone ignores.” She overrode the system only on motorways, where she felt that sticking to 70mph “was just too slow”, adding: “I have never got pleasure from speeding but I think the motorway limit should be 80.”

Ms Atack says she has become far more likely to observe the speed limit since the trial. She said: “It makes you realise how easy it is to speed. I would like to have kept it because you never have to worry about speed cameras and can concentrate totally on the road ahead.”

Glynn Dawson, 36, from East Leeds, also grew to like the system but found several flaws in the speed limits database. He said: “The speed map they used was a bit out of date and would have allowed me to do 50mph through one village where the limit had been reduced to 30mph.”


Just goes to show. I think that could be a useful quote for Paul to use.

Not only that - how can I sign up for this?? I'd skew their figures a bit - close to a million miles covered with just three people smacking the back of my car in all that time! Would I be seeing the claimed 19% reduction in the item below??
Quote:
Times
September 06, 2005

Life is safer with a car that doesn't let you break speed limit

By Ben Webster

Motorists take a shine to system that puts on the brake

DRIVERS prevented from breaking speed limits by a device that automatically applies their brakes have a fifth fewer crashes, a government-funded study has found.

Most of the motorists who took part were keen to keep the device at the end of the trial, despite it removing much of the thrill from driving.

The Department for Transport is creating a digital speed map that will allow intelligent speed adaptation, known as ISA, to operate on all roads. ISA will also be incorporated into the European star-rating system for car safety, with only those fitted with the device qualifying for the top score of five stars.

The study, conducted in Leeds, found that motorists who had the device fitted to their cars were 19 per cent less likely to injure themselves or someone else. ISA works by combining a satellite positioning system with a computer that controls the throttle and brakes. The system checks the vehicle’s speed with the local limit and, if the driver is breaking the limit, either blocks acceleration or applies the brakes.

If the driver crosses from a 40mph area to a 30mph area without slowing, the brake pedal lowers automatically and the speed drops to the limit within a few seconds.

The driver can override the system either by using a switch on the steering wheel or by pressing down hard on the accelerator. The computer measures how frequently the driver overrides the system.

The department is funding the £1.9 million study by the University of Leeds, involving 20 Skoda Fabias, because motor manufacturers are reluctant to carry out their own trials. Results from the first of four six-month trials, each involving twenty drivers, show that average speeds declined significantly.

The study team calculated the fall in injuries by comparing their results with previous research showing the risks of speeding. A pedestrian is twice as likely to be killed if hit at 35mph than at 30mph. The overall risk of having a crash falls by 5 per cent for every 1mph reduction in speed.

The trial found that young males were more likely to override the system than women and older drivers. The volunteers included equal numbers of people who said that they usually obeyed the speed limit and those who said that they frequently broke it.

Oliver Carsten, Professor of Transport Safety at Leeds university, said: “The system didn’t eliminate speeding, but there was a very substantial reduction in excessive speed.”

He dismissed concerns that drivers would object to having a device that kept a record of their speed and movements.

“It has been described as like having Big Brother on board, but that’s unfair because drivers can switch it off.”

The trial has prompted Transport for London to order a feasibility study with a view to making ISA compulsory on buses and taxis. There are no plans to make ISA compulsory in all cars, but drivers who persistently break the limit may be ordered to fit it as a condition of keeping their licences. Commercial versions, costing about £500, are being developed


Also be interesting to see how I could have had a fifth fewer crashes - as mine have been people hitting me from behind, I suspect that with this, I'd be likely to have more.

What do you all think??

Chris B

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 09:41 
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buckmac wrote:
Also be interesting to see how I could have had a fifth fewer crashes - as mine have been people hitting me from behind, I suspect that with this, I'd be likely to have more.

you'll note that they didn't actually say that the drivers in the trial had a fifth fewer crashes, they said that based on their dodgy statistics due to the average speed decrease shown by the drivers that they SHOULD have a fifth fewer crashes.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 09:44 
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Quote:
Also be interesting to see how I could have had a fifth fewer crashes - as mine have been people hitting me from behind, I suspect that with this, I'd be likely to have more.


Sounds like it was some form of "research" funded by the company that invented these devices.

This sort of device of course only helps to more literally keep up the "stick to the speed limit" government/council campaigns. And with ever more studid speed limits which make no sense still appearing it is going to be more dangerous because people would then be more like to sort of switch off or have less concentration in speed limits which have always been there and/or where its not always safe to travel at the limit.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:08 
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Imagine a motorway with cars fitted with these devices, 3-4 lanes travelling at exactly 70mph. Imagine the amount of tailgating that will go on.

Imagine trying to overtake a car travelling at 30mph in a 40mph zone and the system helpfully applying the brakes for you as you go parallel with it.

They need to stop messing about removing more and more driver interaction from vehicles and leave them alone. If this ever came in, I think accidents would double.

I'd love to see them on motorcycles - applying the brakes as you're turning a corner just before a diesel spill.

Nutters, the lot of them. They are all narrow minded fools who follow the PC line to gain approval from the government (i.e to obtain contracts, money) without considering the potential serious consequences of introducing such a system.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:15 
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buckmac wrote:
Times
September 06, 2005

Life is safer with a car that doesn't let you break speed limit

By Ben Webster

Motorists take a shine to system that puts on the brake

DRIVERS prevented from breaking speed limits by a device that automatically applies their brakes have a fifth fewer crashes, a government-funded study has found.

....

The study, conducted in Leeds, found that motorists who had the device fitted to their cars were 19 per cent less likely to injure themselves or someone else.

ROFL! 4 lots of 20 cars for 6 months... Not exactly a statistically significant sample. Indeed, unless they selected for exceptionally incompetent / accident-prone drivers you wouldn't expect any injury-inducing accidents at all in such a small sample - certainly if it was properly randomised.

Quote:
The study team calculated the fall in injuries by comparing their results with previous research showing the risks of speeding. A pedestrian is twice as likely to be killed if hit at 35mph than at 30mph. The overall risk of having a crash falls by 5 per cent for every 1mph reduction in speed.


Which, as we all know, has been proven to be complete b*llocks.

Quote:
The trial found that young males were more likely to override the system than women and older drivers.

"Sun rises in East" - sensation!

Quote:
Oliver Carsten, Professor of Transport Safety at Leeds university, said: “The system didn’t eliminate speeding, but there was a very substantial reduction in excessive speed.”

Assuming that he's been reported correctly what credence can you give to someone who is incapable of distinguishing between "excessive speed" and "speeding"? Looks like the intellectual rigour required to be a "Professor of Transport Safety" is not dissimilar to that required to be "Professor of Flower Arranging". :(

Quote:
He dismissed concerns that drivers would object to having a device that kept a record of their speed and movements.

“It has been described as like having Big Brother on board, but that’s unfair because drivers can switch it off.”


So what's the point of having it then? The only group that it's likely to have any real effect on - young males - will be the first to switch it off, and how many unlicensed / unregistered cars are likely to have an operating version??

buckmac wrote:
What do you all think??

Chris B


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:40 
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This study is garbage. Apart from the tiny sample issue, to be representative they would need to include the correct proportion of known drunk drivers, disqualified drivers, and the like. Obviously they won't do that. Also, when people have expensive cars on loan, at least some of them are probably going to be more carfeul than usual not to damage it.

I expect once you correct for the better than average driving records of those involved in this study, what it actually shows is they have more accidents. not fewer.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:45 
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Zamzara wrote:
Also, when people have expensive cars on loan, at least some of them are probably going to be more carfeul than usual not to damage it.



Thats a good point, never thought of that. Any reason why these people couldn't have had these devices fitted to their own cars? Or would it have been too difficult?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 13:11 
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Utter sh!te as usual.

two factors at play here relating to the drivers under observation.

1: people chosing to be guinea pigs are probably less disposed to exceeding speed limits.

2: You're hardly going to drive recklessly when under constant observation for a trial.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 13:31 
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3. In a brand new car that isn't yours.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 14:52 
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Rewolf wrote:
3. In a brand new car that isn't yours.

Agreed - the system should have been retrofitted to cars that the owners had been driving for (say) at least a year. It takes a few months to learn about a car before the average driver will know the nuances of it's capabilities. There is also the psycological factor of being somewhere familiar.

Anyway, didn't I read a comment from Paul that people had actually crashed the Fabias? Would be interesting to compare against the chances of 20 other people crashing a new car.

Gareth


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 14:53 
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buckmac wrote:
Quote:
www.timesonline.co.uk/driving
Latest motoring news and car reviews

“It was a very strange feeling having the brake pedal lower beneath my foot without me applying any pressure.




imagine driving round with your foot resting on the brake pedal :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 14:58 
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ed_m wrote:
buckmac wrote:
Quote:
www.timesonline.co.uk/driving
Latest motoring news and car reviews

“It was a very strange feeling having the brake pedal lower beneath my foot without me applying any pressure.




imagine driving round with your foot resting on the brake pedal :roll:

I'd assumed she was covering the brake preparatory to slowing to the new limit, I hope my assumption is correct otherwise that's a definite !Yikes!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 15:04 
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I do in certain circumstances, and I am sure that this is what he was referring to: where the road is steeply downhill, has a low speed limit, and has cameras. There is no choice really - the slope is too steep for engine braking, and it is 3 points if you don't brake to counter gravity.

In this scenario technical assistance is the only option to removing the cameras in order to maintain safety (opposite of cruise control). It is impossible for any of the pro-camera people to argue that you don't need to be looking at your speedo for these cameras; you must, and for a long period of time too - 15 to 20 seconds long. During this time you have to rely on your peripheral vision to spot hazards and of course to tell you when you are clear of the camera zone.

I can think of two such sites. Most cameras I just disagree with, these I hate with a vengeance. The must rank very highly in the "Camera most likely to kill somebody" rankings.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 19:38 
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Lets have these things fitted to every single motor vehicle, NOW.
Then we can be rid of the damn speed cameras.


Sorry, reality check needed, my apologies folks, this is lunacy bordering on the total.

I have been driving vehicles for 10 years now that have speed limiters fitted as standard, Trucks, and they can be a nightmare.
At the moment we are limited to 56mph, but this varies between trucks, some are limited to 56mph, some to 59mph and others to 53mph, plus there are the supermarket trucks which are generally limited to 50mph.
Then you have the foriegners and the Irish who are not limited.
As you will all know, this leads to meyhem on the roads, motorways in particular, some of you may well have suffered from the effects of these limiters.

Now, lets move this onto cars, will they all be calibrated exactly the same, if they can't managed the small number of trucks in comparison to the large number of cars, how do they propose to do it. I know that the system is to be satallite controlled, but there has to be an elemant of calibration involved.
Who will calibrate the calibraters?
To my mind, there are too many variables involved for this system to be safe.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 20:23 
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Well, if it comes to that, it will prove a very expensive and costly lesson for them - and it will show, once and for all, that their policies are fatally flawed.
Unfortunately, it will also prove very costly in life and limb.

Cheers
Peter

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 23:56 
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Strange - is this same system -


he future has been delayed - for cars that automatically obey speed limits, at least. Trials of 20 special Skoda Fabias at Leeds University are running late, due to problems getting the satellite-controlled



equipment to work. The project, backed by the Government, is also awaiting the construction of a new simulator, which tests drivers' reactions to their vehicles slowing down.

Link -http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/59531/speed_trials_hitch.html


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:39 
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Dratsabasti wrote:
Now, lets move this onto cars, will they all be calibrated exactly the same, if they can't managed the small number of trucks in comparison to the large number of cars, how do they propose to do it. I know that the system is to be satallite controlled, but there has to be an elemant of calibration involved.

Posit... Personal concept of Hell... Motorway, heavy rain, 2 or 3 lines of close-packed cars all doing their controlled "legal therefore safe" 70mph...

Jeez! :(

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:12 
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What happens when you come out of a 60mph limit into a 30mph or 20mph zone...

*screeeechhh* *dug dug dug dug* (ABS) :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 20:04 
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Quote:
www.timesonline.co.uk/driving
DEBBIE ATACK was convinced she was a law-abiding motorist until she tried driving with intelligent speed adaptation. She found the system was constantly sending her reminders that she was trying to break the limit.

And I bet every other numptie we get posting how they never break the speed limit would also get a rude awakening.

Quote:
The study team calculated the fall in injuries by comparing their results with previous research showing the risks of speeding. A pedestrian is twice as likely to be killed if hit at 35mph than at 30mph. The overall risk of having a crash falls by 5 per cent for every 1mph reduction in speed.


What this says is they had no results so they used some of the old lies to make some up. When I did that for my physics A level I had to re-do my work. I see things change when you go to university.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 20:33 
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Might have been better to have used old Skoda's/Lada's -the perfect defence against breaking NSL - "M'LUD, I was driving a Skoda Estelle" - "Not Guilty - car can't go that fast" :roll:


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