Safe Speed Forums

This is not so much a road safety issue as a civil liberties issue, but I hear that the ANPR system is going to see an upgrade whereby they will be storing where and when every number plate was seen, regardless of whether any crime was comitted.

This means that they can track and use in court evidence of criminals movements if they were involved in any other crime, for example if they were in a bank robbery, the getaway car could be tracked and found anywhere in the country, and it's owners prosecuted, providing it:

a) wasn't stolen
b) didn't have false plates
c) did not have number plates swapped at any point in it's journey
d) has a legiable font and no mud on it
e) had number plates in the first place
f) is correctly registered with the DVLA

It can probably be used to fight terrorism too, we'll come up with some reason, perhaps they have some new OCR system that can read arabic or something?

In other words it's completely pointless, but will be able to monitor the movements of 90% of the british public, and will archived away somewhere for the government to access at any time.

Can anyone confirm or deny this project?

ANPR

The 90% of the British public that are law abiding. Do the police etc. really think that criminals drive around perpetrating evil deeds in vehicles with the correct plates fitted?

This is nothing to do with law enforcement but I can't figure out why they bother or how they can possibly justify ANPR.

'They' are desperate to know of our whereabouts at all times, call it a conspiracy but in my opinion it is a form of control. If you have control of the peasants, you can then start the indoctrination.

Precisely.

If I was going to rob a bank under this system (or deliver a bomb or whatever), I'd use a stolen car, get so far away, find a nice quiet spot with no CCTV, swap my number plates with an innocent victim's car doesn't even have to be the same type, then drive in a completely different direction to the likely direction of the victim's car, at which point ANPR2 will show the money or bomb going somewhere totally different and lead so some poor old bloke's house getting raided that night.

ANPR could actually aid criminals if you think about it. If Chief Constables rely upon the technology and then divert resources elsewhere, roaming patrols are becoming more and more infrequent.

Some criminals have their own forms of intelligence and without giving them too much credit, aren't as stupid as we would like to believe. They know how the Police operate, they know the technology that the Police are using, they also know how to beat CCTV, ANPR etc etc. It's mugs like us whom haven't a clue.

This discussion has confirmed what I already believed; From a law enforcement perspective ANPR is a complete waste of money and resources.



Yep, the police are stupid and we are the mugs for relying on them

so

The police should use all the resources available to them by why waste effort on something that is fundamentally flawed?

It's not a question of "word getting around", ANPR does not catch uninsured drivers, drunks, disqualified drivers, cars with false plates, defective vehicles, etc. etc.

When operating an ANPR exactly who were you hoping to catch? A few tax dodgers maybe, what about uninsured drivers?

The solution is to get more coppers out from behind their desks and speed cameras and on to the streets where they are visible. Technology is not the answer to every problem and policing via remote control clearly is not working.

Anpr can catch drivers whom are uninsured, disqual etc as long as it is used with Police support, for examle with Police traffic officers etc. The ones one the garage forecourt or high up on poles etc I don't believe serve a purpose other than to monitor our journeys etc.

The trouble with ANPR, is that it relies upon reliable information, yes the Police are able to update the databases etc and ANPR uses a selection of databases not just DVLA records. The trouble with this system is that it generally relies upon the honesty of the person who owns or uses the vehicle upon registration of the vehicle. The other data is collected or added at later stage and in many cases relies upon the information being correct in the first place. The vehicle, may well have insurance, MOT, be registered etc but if a criminal is going to use a car in criminal activity then it is highly likely that that criminal will either clone a car or use that car only once.

Either way, we know ANPR isn't working as it should because the Government want to introduce number plates with a chip in. Again, this suggests that the criminal fraternity (i'm not talking about no insurance or those driving whilst disqualified etc) are one step ahead of the police and will continue to be until we ourselves have a chip inserted into our bodies.

The trouble with technology is that it can be manipulated by human beings and in most respects relies upon the compliance or ineraction of human beings to be effective which is half the problem, those who know nothing about workings of the technology will fear it, those who don't will find a way of getting around it and can use it to their advantage.

No it can't.

The law requires DRIVERS to be insured. ANPR reads VEHICLE indexes. ANPR cannot EVER determine if a vehicle is being driven with or without insurance.

... Even assuming that the databases are up to date and not corrupted.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

APNR can force criminals to be a bit less casual - car colour typ etc. has to match the number.
However it's use has to be carefully directed and not used indiscriminately, and suspect cars should be STOPPED, or no further action taken directly agains the owner WITHOUT corroborating evidence.

As a law abiding motorist, I have no worries that if used in that manner, the BiB are not going to be breaking down MY door because some scroat has cloned my number!

Obviously the system needs using wisely - and when have Governments shown that degree of competance?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

There's some weasel words for you. The very point is that they are wasting valuable time and money on some resources that are so easily defeated it is unbelievable. Moreover, they are relying on those cheaper resources and neglecting other more effective but costly ones, so to say that by replacing intelligent thinking with inadequate technology is 'using all available resources' - that is one of the most ignorant statememts I have ever read in this forum....

As bizarrly as it sounds, yes possibly, especially the 'hard-core, Mr Big type' criminals. They are going to ensure that everything is absolutely bob-on when it comes to the legality of thier car. If they are involved in a million-pound drugs run they aren't going to be too happy if PC Plod pulls them in for minor vehicle offences or an out of date tax-disc etc. They will want to avoid anything that flags them up to the authorities.

Of course it will do nothing for the low to medium level villians but perhaps it has some use. Of course to rely on it or to make it a central plank of police resource would be a grave mistake however.

Just been trying out the online quotes since Directline have decided to use me to fund their expansion!
I noticed that when I entered the number of my vehicle that each site responded by displaying the exact make, model and colour of my vehicle.
The only failure was to identify that this model has alloys as standard, so the form asks if the car is modified in any way "such as alloy wheels".

Whose database are they using - DVLA or their own - some of these firms have NEVER been visited by me in ANY form?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thats just a standard question, as you could have aftermarket alloy wheels fitted so that would class as a modification. However, if your car left the factory with those alloy wheels fitted then that is not a modification and you should tick no to the box. Bizzarely, if the car left the factory without alloy wheels, but you decide to fit the manufacturers alloy wheels that would have come with the vehicle in the first place, it still counts as a modification!

The insurance companies are all linked to the DVLA database, but are not 'live' and need updating regularly. About 3 years ago my car had a private plate on it, but has now been given another age related plate(but not the original one). Some insurance companies have mine down as a Capri Tempo 1600 but some correctly have it as a 2.8injection. Trying to convince one operator that I did not have a Tempo was liking trying to convince her the world was flat.

"No it's a 2.8injection"
"An injection tempo?"
"No just 2.8injection"
"There is no Tempo coming up on my screen for that model sir"
"That's because it's not a Tempo!"

They have a list of vehicles and the basic data, eg. make/model/colour/engine, this is sold to anybody with the money. Secondly the insurers have their own consolidated database, but I doubt this is used for that purpose any more.

Gareth

[quote="Ernest Marsh"]As a law abiding motorist, I have no worries that if used in that manner, the BiB are not going to be breaking down MY door because some scroat has cloned my number!
[quote]

If "some scroat" clones your number the BiB will be at least knocking on your door if your number is picked out because of some indiscretion by the said scroat. You will then be obliged to prove that it wasn't you speeding or driving without RFL or whatever they want to talk to you about. After all, computers are never wrong, are they...

A friend of mine has had his car cloned and has had several demands for congestion charge payments and fines for bus lane violations. For each offense he has had to prove that he was somewhere else at the time which is not always easy. He has advised the police and TfL that his car has been cloned and they are not interested, they just want their money.