Safe Speed Forums

Daveyboy,

I have to disagree about over and under-steer. My car is a high performance AWD and can be set-up for both, but out of the factory they are all set up to under-steer - because most drivers will be able to handle an under-steer event better than an over-steer one. The recommendation for FWD and AWD cars is always that more grip goes onto the back because Mr Average will generally react by lifting off, and if you have less grip at the back the resulting weight shift will cause the back to let go thus spinning the car into the oncoming traffic.

An under-steer event can always be moderated by gently lifting off the throttle, an over-steer event has to be controlled by correctly applying power which shifts the weight back to recover rear end grip - a sudden lift off results in either a spin or fish tailing.

The enthusiasts (for my car) get the suspension setup tuned and generally aim for absolutely neutral handling by "dialing out" the under-steer - which does allow for over-steer if you really want it by deliberately using the lift-off over-steer effect. The newer highest spec machines have a Driver Controlled Central Diff which allows more power to be sent to the rear (50:50 to 0:100), in auto mode this controls any such events by being by default about 40:60 giving a slightly happy tail, but the car detects rear slip and moves the power forward so that the car changes characteristics. I haven't got this, but it is apparently a weird feeling when you first notice it. If you are on a private road, then drifting is very easy by using manual settings approaching 0:100. For best progress on a tarmac surface you really don't want either effect.

I also used blackcircles to get my tyres when my fronts needed replacing after about 16k miles from new. As the manual said the car had special soft compound tyres that were designed to last around 5k miles, I thought I'd done pretty well. Decided to stick with the original equipment tyres which are Bridgestone Potenza REO40s, they've always seemed pretty good to me, good wet and dry performance, and 16k miles isn't bad durability for a 200bhp front wheel drive car.

Capri 2.8, there is a massive difference between tyre quality, and you shouldn't rely on it no, but in an emergency, its nice to know, you have the best possible chance of avoiding an accident.

Rewolf, the reason more drivers can handle understeer better because understeer is more likely to happen, therefore it happens more often and the drivers cope with it. Other side of the coin is that the other fairly natural reaction to understeer is to steer more, thus creating even more understeer. I'd rather have a neutrally handling car or a slight bias towards oversteer any day of the week. Oh, and what is your car? Is it an Evo? Scooby? My guess is a Scooby as they're notorious for understeer.

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www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

I'd have thought the most common reaction to understeer would be to try to slow the car. Of course, for some that might mean using the brakes

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Subaru Impreza WRX with Prodrive Performance Pack (or PPP) which remaps the EMU, and replacement exhaust and turbo pipes giving 25% torque boost and peak power of 265bhp: 0 - 60 in 4.9 sec if you get the gear change right. Not the fastest model available but a good compromise between performance, comfort and price. It is also good for a 4 wheel drift from a standing start.

Yes, by default all road going scoobies under-steer due to the factory suspension settings, but there are numerous alternative settings by Prodrive and others that will change that characteristic, and replacement suspension parts etc. Simple 4 wheel suspension adjustment (no more than £80) is enough to remove the under-steer, but the more enthusiastic people also change springs, anti-roll bar, drop-links, dampers and suspension mounting parts to allow for additional adjustment. Just changing the rear anti-roll bar to a stiffer one will remove the under-steer because it reduces the weight transfer and keeps the front wheels in better road contact.

Lots of discussion about under and over-steer on http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=354, including the finer points about when under-steer translates into a front wheel skid.

Going back to the under/over steer point, yes most drivers will increase the steering in under-steer, but most will also lift off the throttle, which transfers weight forward and increases front end grip thus normally getting the car back to where the driver wanted it. This is the reason why under-steer is preferable for Mr Average driver: lifting off the throttle is the standard reaction to danger - slow down this is getting dangerous.

In an over-steering car the same reaction happens: untrained driver will lift off the throttle, which obviously has the same effect and shifts weight forward onto the front wheels. But the front wheels are already gripping fine, what happens is that the rear wheels proportionally lose whatever grip they had and the car spins, or if the wheels were slipping because of excess throttle they might suddenly regain grip when the speed matches the road speed which is the fish-tail situation. The good drivers (such as the instructors I had on my training day) will steer into the slide and carefully balance the throttle to maintain just the right amount of rear-end grip for a nicely balanced drift.

However there are obvious safety disadvantages to holding a drift on a public road: the back of the car, and potentially all of the car is moving sideways across the road which might be into another lane, the verge, armco or the oncoming lane. If the balance is maintained perfectly, then you will be OK, but the slightest mistake and if you are lucky the tow truck will get the car out of the hedge, if you are unlucky it will be coffins for you are that family of 5 that happened to be coming the other way. Even if you are holding the drift perfectly you will still be totally stuffed by an unexpected obstruction in the road, because any lift off of the throttle will cause that weight shift and resulting spin.

On the balance of things, for everybody but the enthusiast driver who takes time to learn about how to get a car into a drift and how to control it, and under-steering car is the safer and preferable option.

yes, you quite often see memorials on trees about a hundred metres from a bend...

Ahhhh, the ProDrive pack, Subaru are giving that away free at the momment aren't they? Pretty good idea, because most owners would do those basic ECU and breathing mods straight away anyway.

Back to the oversteer/understeer thing, as an enthusiast driver who has been on trackdays and drift days, I would definately say oversteer is preferable to understeer, however I can sort of see where you're coming from if you're talking about Mr Average. At the end of the day though, people on here aren't average drivers and I'd like to think that 99% of people on here would be more comfortable in an oversteer situation than an understeer situation.

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www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

I believe Mr Montoya gave a good example of how easy it is to control oversteer in qualifying a few races back...
Thanks, but I'd rather not deal with that on the road if I don't have to.

And I can give you an example of understeer and oversteer in a controlled environment in a road car and see which one you'd rather deal with then.

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www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive

My point was, like wine, price is not a perfect indication of quality! If we're having a night in our favorite costs just £2.92 from ASDA

As for the whole 'best chance in an emergency' etc, at what point do you stop then? Surely there are better cars then a 200SX to avoid accidents? Not that I'm suggesting it's in anyway a bad car(as its not), but there is nearly always another car that is superior in the braking and handling department. For me, I rely on giving myself plenty of time and space, as on paper I must have quite a dangerous car - I read a report when the car was new which rated the brakes as 'adequate' and that was 25 years ago! But touch wood, I've never come close to having an accident other then someone running into the back of me(nothing I could have done to avoid it). However, my friend relies on the crash protection his Range Rover affords him and consequently takes far too many chances - and I've told him that!

Well, what a conversation I started here then...

Anyway, after checking around myself a bit (including the online shops), it seems that the original quote of £340 all in (balancing, valve, carcass disposal) for a set of 4x 205/50 ZR 16 Avons is a bloody good price.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

well let's hear it then!

Agreed. Understeer is more "comfortable" for road use as correcting it usually simply involves a slight lift off the throttle. Oversteer is undoubtedly more "fun" but in most cases takes more room to correct and is generally more hassle. On the circuit it's different altogether of course..

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"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

Its not a case of hearing about it, its being sat in a passenger seat and feeling which is safer. I've experienced both from a drivers seat and a passenger seat, and I know which scared me more, particularly more noticeable from the passenger seat!!!!

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www.clubrwd.com - For all things rear wheel drive