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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 17:22 
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Paul, it might have been Anglia TV, I came in in the middle of the news.
Anyway, the guy is from East Anglia and seems very clued-up. Apparently his background includdes measurements in the space technology field, or so the TV implied. He is one very pissed-off individual as well as he is adamant he was doing exactly 30, and the TV reporter seemed to believe him and the report was suggesting that the cash-camera was defective.
Very interesting.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 21:43 
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Gentlemen (and of course Ladies)

Surely the bottom line is this: -

Put aside for the moment the arguments about whether the Lti 20-20 can be 'fiddled' to show a speed different to that of the vehicle under surveillance. Clearly it can be fiddled; there can be no argument about this, as it has been independently demonstrated as possible in the public domain, it is the degree to which it occurs in practice.

The real question that Mr JJ and other SCP managers MUST answer before claiming 100% perfection, is how was it possible for the device to register speeds outside the speed envelope of the vehicle ? A bus claimed to be doing 80 mph but incapable of more than 50, and other cases involving cars recorded at well over 100 mph, (115 I believe in one case for a Fiat Punto), subsequently proved when driven on private circuits under test conditions as not able to achieve the claimed speed. And another case where the driver was fortunate to have a tachograph in the vehicle operating at the time of the offence where the speed was within the capabilities of the vehicle. In all these cases independent means were fortuitously available to prove the error, something not generally available in most other cases.

The evidence is therefore overwhelming from demonstration and proven cases in court that the device is NOT 100 % reliable. Having proven this is the case then, what does Mr JJ think is a reasonable figure? Is it 99.9% or 99.99% or 99.999% for example? Once a figure is admitted, it is then reasonably easy to calculate the figure for motorists wrongly accused who cannot refute the camera due to absence of independent speed loggers. But with 12 million motorists fined, any figure less than 100% gives a total for those falsely accused which is significant. We must know what figure the partnerships regard as acceptable.

However, once Mr JJ and his cohorts admit error, and an 'acceptable' false accusation figure is stated, their case is lost, because it claims omnipotence. So don't hold your breath.

All speed measurement devices rely on a technology of some sort, just like nuclear power station and aircraft control systems. No engineer in these fields will ever postulate his equipment is 100% reliable and accurate; it is an impossibility; it can never be proved. No specifications even in the defence and nuclear industries ever specify 100%, it is usually something in the 99.999% level with mandatory mitigations to cover the events out of the limit, and to reduce the adverse effects of failure. I have just returned from a course on software in safety-critical systems. It was clear that those claiming 100% accuracy, reliability or safety are fools; it is just NOT POSSIBLE !! Most engineers must accept this and design so as to mitigate the effects of failure.

Yet uniquely, the camera partnerships are apparently able to attain perfection where others in much more risky fields cannot !!

In motoring, mitigation was in the road-side process whereby the motorist was detected and then stopped at the time of the offence and confronted with the evidence. At this point, most motorists would admit a 'fair cop', and the police used their discretion on when to prosecute and when not, after all the police had no reason to make false accusations, or to penalise those in slight error..

Generally the process was not mechanistic and just the act of stopping the errant motorist was enough to ensure compliance in the future. These techniques and procedures gave us the safest roads in Europe over the years. Let nobody be in any doubt of this; the accident rate in the late fifties and sixties was quite shocking and was brought down relentlessly by engineering and our traffic police, to the kind of figures we have today, despite the billions upon billions of vehicle miles now recorded per year

It is time to return to them

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 22:36 
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safedriver wrote:
<stuff>
that summed it up nicely. Good job. :clap:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 06:46 
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Quote:
is 99.9% good enough?

no

365 days per year. totting up happens over 3 years. If I drive through 4 cameras a day average (I used to drive through 13!)

1095 days = 4380 camera passes at 99.9%accuracy= 4.3 convictions

(therefore 13 cameras a day=14235 camera passes in three years, 1 mistake
makes my driving 99.9929% perfect :lol: )

On a serious note if the lti or any other camera system makes mistakes at one in a thousand samples then people will be banned just on camera mistakes. The lorry driver I am helping through the courts has a tri-annual milage of 202,000 miles. how many cameras will he pass? if there were only on camera every 50 miles he would be banned at 99.9% accuracy. (202000/4/1000=50.4miles)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:18 
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Cooperman wrote:
On BBC Look East News last night there was a news item about a well-qualified electronics engineer who is going to court over an apparently erroneous speed reading which resulted in an NiP for, I thik, 38 in a 30.He maintains he was definately not driving at over 30 and is prepared to question the design, use and accuracy of the 'dodgyscope'.
The item seemed very sympathetic to the accused rather than the Old Bill, whose spokesman just trotted out the usual 'spin' about it being an approved speed camera, no previous problems and, of course, 'speed kills'.
Maybe you could pick up on that, Paul.


Bet the CPS drop the case before it gets to court.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:31 
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A few weeks ago I was practising taking long exposure shots in the dark - you know the sort of thing, beams of red lights running into the distance.

These 2 shots were taken within a minute of each other, the camera was on a fairly strong tripod and a timer of 2 secs set so that I would not wobble the camera when pressing the release button.

The camera was not touched or moved during the exposure, the first being a 3 sec and the second being a 2.5 sec.

The only difference was that a vehicle drove past me on the bridge I was photographing from when exposing the 2nd shot, and whilst neither shot is of any merit it is amazing the effect the vehicle had on the 2nd.

Image

Image

I think the effect would have been worse if I was on a spung vehicle.

Cheers

Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 17:07 
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now try that with a zoom lens focused on a moving car at 700m


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 08:56 
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I thought it wouldn't be long before this turned up on Numberwatch (3rd article down) since John Brignell was involved in the program. (My bold.)
Quote:
The camera does not lie

When you have been involved in an activity such as monitoring the frauds and errors involved in the abuse of numbers in the media and politics it is easy to convince yourself that you are unshockable. So it was with your bending author until he became involved in a BBC investigation of hand-held speed cameras. These devices have often been mentioned in Number Watch and they are probably the cause of more impassioned correspondence from all over the world than any other topic. We have observed before that they are a fruitful source of income for governments, and are protected as a random and secure form of taxation, but the degree of official obfuscation, Orwellian misrepresentation and sheer bureaucratic bullying involved in the UK is quite startling. The BBC programme demonstrated quite clearly that with a tiny judicial movement of the camera you could record a stationary car as going more than thirty mph. The Managing Director of the importer of the instruments, apparently the regular police expert witness in such cases, stated that such an error would not occur if the car was moving.

Who is this guy? What are his academic qualifications? Are they relevant? What institutions have admitted him to their fellowship? Apart from making money out of importing boxed instruments, what does he actually know? Is he likely to give a disinterested opinion?


To a simpleton such as your bending author, zero is just as valid a speed as any other. At what speed does the transition occur between a thirty mph error and a zero error? Does this managing director actually understand the algorithms that are implemented in his goods? Is he aware of the problems of fitting a straight line to a data sequence? How does he decide whether a sequence is linear or non-linear? Incidentally, if you too are confused at this point, the instrument does not work on the Doppler principle, but calculates a sequence of distances by determination of time of flight of the infra-red beam, over a period of about one third of a second. The data are only rejected if they are not in a straight line. Who decides what is a straight line? How straight is straight?

Some poor victim is going to lose his licence, possibly even his livelihood, because the programmer of a bit of microprocessor firmware writes a few glib lines of code. Does that programmer understand the theory of quantisation noise, the z transform, the limitations of the method of least squares, the degree of tremor in the human hand, the propensity of human subconscious to achieve the result that is expected and desired or the ruthlessness of the Establishment in obtaining funding for its overweening bureaucracy?

The behaviour of the Home Office in this saga is quite extraordinary and menacing. Perhaps, when one has spent twenty years being a professor of industrial instrumentation (possibly the only professor of industrial instrumentation), one might have developed an exaggerated respect for one’s own appreciation of the basic rules of the subject. Nevertheless, it would not seem unreasonable to propose that, in evaluating an instrument, one of the essential elements is to determine and investigate the possible failure modes. Not only did the Home Office fail to do this, but they have assiduously prevented anyone else from doing it either. Furthermore, according to the coda of the recent BBC programme, the Home Office have threatened that anyone who uses the information coming from that programme in his defence is likely to receive a higher fine.

There was a time when the level of fines was determined by the judiciary. What have we come to when you are punished for daring to defend yourself against a dubious charge? Turning the police into random tax collectors causes a great deal of resentment and damage to their ability to tackle real crime. Police in North Wales, the fiefdom of the egregious Richard Brunstrom (who generated our Number of the Month for June, 2005) are given targets for the number of arrests of motorists, regardless of the actual number of offences. It can be shown that people are able to learn subconsciously to achieve desired results in measurement. All it needs in the case of the hand-held speed camera is a movement of the front of the camera of the order the thickness of a human hair. With a little acquired skill you can beat the algorithm that flags an error for non-linearity and become the constabulary champion of North Wales. Among others, Jones the Burglar will love you for it. Time was when Home Office scientists were fiercely independent of politics and widely admired, while chief constables were appointed for their skills as thief takers, not their political correctness.

Testing an instrument is like testing a scientific theory – you try to break it. It is clear that the Home Office only tried to demonstrate that the device worked in favourable circumstances. It is evident that the whole concept of the instrument is seriously flawed. Rather than exploit the Doppler Effect, it takes a series of readings over a period of about a third of a second. The speed is calculated by fitting a straight line to the data sequence. Only if the data do not form a straight line is an error flagged. Just fitting a straight line is fraught with difficulties; determining whether the line is actually straight is a whole new ball game. The major potential source of falsity is “slip error” in which the beam rakes the side of the vehicle.

All individuals to some extent experience normal hand tremor. The frequency is reduced but the amplitude increased by carrying a mass (such as a speed camera). In addition, the process of aiming is a feedback process involving vision, nerves and muscles, resulting in behaviour such as lag and overshoot. If this seems nit-picking, note that the distance between the number plate and the edge of a car subtends an angle of a fraction of a degree at the distances usually involved. This means considerably less than 1 mm of motion of the front of the camera relative to the back. Try focussing a pair of powerful binoculars on a moving number plate a couple of hundred metres away, or try taking a photograph of a moving object with the shutter speed set at a third of a second.

There is no reason to suppose that slip error will necessarily produce a non-straight line of data. The only reasonable conclusion you could come to in view of all these caveats is that thousands of motorists have been wrongly convicted, some of them losing their livelihood as a result.

This is one of those cases in which it is difficult to understand why the fundamental design decision was made. Laser Doppler velocimetry has been successfully applied to the measurement of speeds of everything from blood corpuscles to rolled steel. Why throw it aside for a mechanism with such obvious contradictions?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 09:40 
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Sounds like he is less than happy about being criticised.

Unfortunately he is up against the politics machine where saving of face is much more important than letting little things like facts get in the way. The fact that the people that made the decision to approve these things are criminally negligent and should be in jail for the damage they have done will only make them fight harder.

Well done John Brignall. I support you.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 18:54 
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John Brignell wrote:
This is one of those cases in which it is difficult to understand why the fundamental design decision was made. Laser Doppler velocimetry has been successfully applied to the measurement of speeds of everything from blood corpuscles to rolled steel. Why throw it aside for a mechanism with such obvious contradictions?


The cynic in me would suggest that speed guns which operated on sound, proven technology, without such *ahem* 'features' as slip error, probably wouldn't have much of a market.

Cheers
Peter

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 19:43 
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Personally I am drafting a letter to my MP to be sent with the tape of inside out asking for the lti20/20 to be withdrawn or re-evaluated.

99.9% is not good enough to stop a driver passing 1000 cameras getting a wrong conviction. This laser/camera doesn’t come near this standard.

There have been very few video clips released. I have seen about 7. The slip error is present on two, It may be I have only seen seven tapes out of 2000 released and all the rest are being hidden by people in shame. But I don’t think so. I have one full length DVD and the rest are short clips under 1 min. I have seen a US lti used in car parks getting wrong readings in car parks on two occasions. When pointed at a one way street with all the cars coming towards us at 10-15 mph we got a reading of -7. There are video clips using uk spec LTI20/20's where negative readings are given by cars coming towards the kit.

We have fought to get the full video in a case. We have sent 5 letters to the police cps and court demanding disclosure of the tape. Two times the court have instructed the cps to release the tape. Then a few seconds are released. We ask in court again and they deny access as it may reveal number plates and faces. (This was meant to imply that the data protection act would apply. but the act does not apply to material to be used in defence of a court case).

I have seen someone accused of 53 in a 40 limit forced to defend his case from a locked glass cell in the magistrate’s court. This cell is meant for arrestable offences. However this court is using it to intimidate motorists as a matter of course. Presenting them as “guilty ready for punishment"

They use this camera under power lines and over electrified railways. Yet the current ACPO guidelines prevent this. I received two tickets that broke these rules.

Remember that little bit at the end of the video from the government boffins. "This camera is accurate if used as laid down in the current UK guidelines" no one is refunding the tickets that were not done as per this years guidelines.

Then in another case about signed NIPS the defendant was told "this is a magistrate’s court. You should have signed the form, this is not the place to bring up points of law"

It is a system which is losing its integrity. The police, cps and courts are bending the rules to defend their cash cow.

In some ways this rant is a little off topic but it is an insight to how much effort will be required to make them listen

Any one who wants to write to their MP, PM me and I will give you my letter and case info.
Rantin' Anton
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 09:56 
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anton wrote:
Then in another case about signed NIPS the defendant was told "this is a magistrate’s court. You should have signed the form, this is not the place to bring up points of law"


WHAT?! Of course it is. It is a court of law ffs.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:53 
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Was having a discussion elsewhere and naturally the topic of speed detection came up.

I find this rather disturbing:

Anonymous Police Officer wrote:
FYI the pro lazer 20.20 works fine thru glass - so you don't have to get wet zapping the oncoming speeding vehicle from 1000 meters away!


now he did go on to say this

Anonymous Police Officer wrote:
what you dont know is that if the lti isn't happy it dont display a reading. Its a clever little bugger. Also, I never used it at all thru glass evidentially speaking - I did try it to see if it would work, but didn't use any readings in evidence - honest!


but that's in regards to using it through glass, how often are these things used while it's raining???

So could it have got an incorrect reading and not shown an error??

Anonymous Police Officer wrote:
well in that case its down to the calibration of the machine, which has been court tested and should be done to stringent guidelines, by an appointed contractor.

In the 6 or so years I had access to them, I never had one problem re a defence suggesting machine fault. Aiming it at the wrong car - yes - but not machine fault.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:20 
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So he is happy with using the device at a range of 1km? No chance of being spotted at that distance is there? No chance at all of holding it steady either.

I am also rather concerned about the through wet glass comments - everybody knows that water droplets act like lenses and distort the path of light going through them - even the officer concerned knows that to see properly through a window in the wet he need wipers to clear the water away to stop diffraction, but he is happy to use an active laser device through two layers of water droplets on glass (out and in paths), because he is confident that the approved testing methods and contractor will do the job properly. No danger then that the testing methods are flawed, or that the contractor is being paid to get them through the door and back into service as fast as possible...

Even if the device was held absolutely steady there is nothing to stop the diffracted beam catching anything at all in a 180deg field, and he would never know because the laser path is not aligned with the video.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 17:26 
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and they keep coming...

Anonymous Police Officer wrote:
Er, its best practice to not do it thru glass, but the manufacturers have no problem with it, as they say once it gets a reading its happy etc, so its not as crucial as you make out...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 17:57 
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johnsher wrote:
and they keep coming...

Anonymous Police Officer wrote:
Er, its best practice to not do it thru glass, but the manufacturers have no problem with it, as they say once it gets a reading its happy etc, so its not as crucial as you make out...

Can one assume that this anonymous person would therefore advocate driving without using wipers in a rainstorm is a perfectly acceptable thing to do?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 18:04 
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pogo wrote:
Can one assume that this anonymous person would therefore advocate driving without using wipers in a rainstorm is a perfectly acceptable thing to do?

it is if you use Rain-X.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 19:48 
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johnsher wrote:
pogo wrote:
Can one assume that this anonymous person would therefore advocate driving without using wipers in a rainstorm is a perfectly acceptable thing to do?

it is if you use Rain-X.

That's a new one on me.. What is it? Some type of water repellent like they use on aircraft?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 22:46 
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rain x is as you say a water repellant designed for motocycle visors etc.

windscreen wipers are more effective.
however rain-x + winscreen wipers are very effective and the dirt dosen't stick as much on the bits the wipers can't reach.

being a tall sod, thats the bit of the windscreen I use a lot in previos cars.
(now I have a BIG windscreen) all I need to do now is completly redesign the dashboard so that I can see the speedo. :o


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 23:10 
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anton wrote:
rain x is as you say a water repellant designed for motocycle visors etc.

windscreen wipers are more effective.
however rain-x + winscreen wipers are very effective and the dirt dosen't stick as much on the bits the wipers can't reach.

being a tall sod, thats the bit of the windscreen I use a lot in previos cars.
(now I have a BIG windscreen) all I need to do now is completly redesign the dashboard so that I can see the speedo. :o

Do you look at your speedo front on, or from above?
I am 6' 2" and am forced to have the seat well back, but in my Espace, I looked down on the speedo relative to where a diminutive Frenchman might sit - a difference of about 2 -3 mph since I looked behind the needle!
When I look left at junctions I see the passegers head ond shoulders in my line of vision, and the A pillars are way way forward compared to if a 5' 10" chap with shorter legs were sat in.!!!

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