Safe Speed Forums

I'll take some pics next time I'm out. Nearly every gantry round here has Watch your speed.



They are still big bright orange signs demanding your attention.



I'm sure I have seen "queue ahead" with no flashers, but I'll pay more attention next time unless I am driving, in which case I will be looking out for the (probably non-existant) queue.

What about white ones like on the new M42 installation?

Oh and quality choice of forums name btw

QUEUE CAUTION and QUEUE AFTER/NEXT JUNCTION are messages set by the MIDAS system (Motorway Incident Detection and Automatic Signalling) which is triggered by the induction loops in the road. That message has flashers, and one of the reasons you see it and then don't encounter a queue is to do with the way it works. When MIDAS detects that a vehicle has occupied a loop site for 2 seconds (a loop site is a pair of induction loops in a lane, 2M square and 10M apart) it considers that to be a "queue incident" and signs and signals will be set. In order to stop the signs and signals entering disco mode, they stay on for a minimum of 4 minutes. This is when you'll see QUEUE CAUTION but no queue.

MIDAS is good for stopping people driving at 70MPH into the back of a queue of traffic. When it's hooked up to the mandatory signals (those with a red ring around the speed) it's called Controlled Motorways and only exists on the south-west quadrant of the M25, where it plays a significant part in controlling congestion (the mandatory 50s that it sets go some way to mitigating the concertina effect).

The motorway signalling system is not there to annoy you, but to help you. No, really, it is.

Disclaimer: I work in this field.

Proper seperation distances and good observation would do this job better however! The 'Queue Caution' aren't so bad because it shouldn't require any additional action from a good driver because they are ready and prepared for the possibility of a queue of traffic but may mean the numpties pay a little more attention.

The ones I don't like are the absued 'advisory speeds' that so often appear without a problem on the carriageway. Well to be fair, a there may have been one, but it's long since been sorted out. However the limits are still being displayed - even 30mph! What am I supposed to do with that information? If I do slow down to 30mph I'll be creating a massive hazard so I've no option but to keep up with the flow of traffic. So their use is?

If drivers paid attention and employed proper observation and planning, there'd be no need for motorway signalling beyond advising that such-and-such a motorway is closed. And while I'm wishing, I'll have a unicorn with a side helping of world peace. You're preaching to the very converted here.

Again, there is a minimum on-time to prevent disco lights.

Setting a 30 on a motorway is a serious business and is not done without very good reason. One reason to keep the signal settings on is that even in free-flowing conditions, an accident or incident causes phantom jams because of the concertina effect due to ghouls slowing down to have a good gawp, and people braking excessively as a result. Advising drivers that they should keep their speed down helps to mitigate this.

Poor signalling is the responsibility of the control office for that particular area.

I should also mention that although there is a SIGNAL/UNDER TEST message we can use for signs, there's no such equivalent for signals, which is why you might occasionally see 60 settings for no apparent reason. It usually means that there's work ongoing in the control office, and the signalling system needs to be tested 'live'.

I don't disagree with any of that really. There is nothing wrong with the system itself, just that I think it is overused. The more it is overused, the less impact they have. Currently I don't think many people pay any notice to them. At best they may 'keep a look out' a little more, which is no bad thing. But of course they should be doing that already... wait...... is that a pig I see in the clouds.......

I know I'm preaching to the converted, and I certainly agree with you that we have a long way to go before everyone is at that standard, but it doesn't mean to say that we shouldn't be aiming for that.

Now if you didn't notice - large Qs on M1 last night J13 - 12 - ACCIDENT.
Police advice on breakdown - get out and get away from car.
What do we see later - marked car stopped on hard shoulder j13-12 , no lights, PC in Hi vis on passenger side with some sort of camera.
Accident waiting to happen - please appropriate police authority tell him about health and safety at work - if he gets hit i suppose it's partialy his fault.But then again , one law for him etc

Then explain the Queue ahead signs I saw at 2am on a Sunday morning on an almost deserted M1 (this is the M1/A1 link road if that helps). No queue, no chance of a queue. Certainly not within four minutes if the time I travelled.

There is a big "slow down" sign that lights up on the A502 North End Road heading North-West towards Golders Green but the speed limit on the road is 30mph and it triggers at a much lower speed so most drivers have just learned to ignore it. I haven't managed to trigger it from my bicycle though (even though it's on such a big downward slope I can easily get close to 30mph or even more on that bit of road).

2AM? Sunday?

Testing, I expect.

There comes a point in the motorway test cycle where you have to set a real message on the sign, not just SIGNAL/UNDER TEST.

I was held up in very bad queues on the M1 South (Luton area) at 2:00am in the morning once. Couldn't believe it - had left the drive late to avoid the usual back to London Sunday night rush, and it was as bad as ever.

Whilst doing the IAM 'observed' drives I started noticing that a lot of country lanes often have the NSL sign as you leave a vilage etc then 25-50 metres later a sharp turn that would be lunatic to try and drive at NSL so why not put the NSL sign after the bend ??

Nope far too sensible !!

Am now seeing locally as I leave villages etc a NSL sign, then a VAS that flashes up at 35 then an sharp bend. Nobody takes the blindest bit of notice of the VAS as they taking notice of the NSL sign, accelerating up to the corner and braking hard to take the corner.

VV strange.

My other gripe about signage is the number of m'way signs that say slow down or Fog when ther is nothing on the road, no traffic jam, no accident, and no fog. Does anyone check these and turn them off ?? Asking around my collegues none of them take any notice of them and assume that the signs are crying wolf.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Safety Engineer - see my last post - both sides showing 40 s and 50s signs , but no obvious reason -no road works etc/etc- no one in middle of road etc and gantry signs unlit(unless it was an excuse to send out our kami-kazi police speed checker to make money ) - as you say - cry wolf and wonder why no one heeds them - are these signs operated from a police control room and by whom?

I went to Whitehaven today via Keswick and the A66, and so got a chance to see the VAS at Bassenthwaite for the first time.
As I approached it I was the only vehicle for half a mile in either direction, AND IT TRIGGERED!!
I had the Mark II speed limiter fitted (wife in passenger seat) and was below the NSL despite the dual carriageway.

The situation has been discussed here before - a sharp bend which tightens. It has been well marked with chevrons and slow signs on the road surface, but IMHO it could be dangerous for the sign to light up as somebody is overtaking coming into the bend at a sensible speed - an inexperienced driver might anchor up, bounce off the right verge and end up speared by the vehicle they were overtaking.
I hope MOLE reads this - I think he travells that way daily!
At the end of the dual is another VAS on a bend - I didn't trigger that one even at a slightly higher speed!
If they cannot widen the road, Straighten the bend or take out the second lane, they would do better to leave out the VAS and put a "Bend Tightens" sign.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Because it's not an NSL sign.

It's not supposed to mean the road is safe to drive at 60mph, it is supposed to be a deristricted sign. It's supposed to mean "you are on your own now mate, time to make your own decisions". Shame the nanny state has killed off any concept of people being responsible for their own safety.

Yep.
You MUST wear a helmet on a motorcycle.
You MUST wear a seat belt.
You MUST NOT climb trees for conkers,

....but you can smoke yourself to death, because HMG gets a BIG cut of every penny you spend - and by the way, smoke low tar, it takes longer, so we make more money out of you!!!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

'Because it's not an NSL sign.

It's not supposed to mean the road is safe to drive at 60mph, it is supposed to be a deristricted sign.'

Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa, said NSL to provoke a response, yes it is derestricted BUT, most people assume it means NSL/60mph, given our somewhat contradictory and confusing signage why not place more sensibly, after all putting the sign after the bend doesn't send confusing messages.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

my old passat could... might have cornered like a bouncy castle and had a 'live' front end but that thing just floated over speed humps! there's your answer to humps, just buy wallowy old clapped out cars with worn out suspension! oh aren't speed humps just a great safety idea!




so why did the sign on the side of the M4 westbound before the swindon turnoff display "END" permanantly for several months, despite there being no other warnings all the way from london? We were rather concerned it might be depressed, or perhaps it was trying to warn people from going into swindon.


okay, VAS. stupid bloody idea. bright flashing neon signs on the side of the road, if anything the "immdiacy" of a sign coming to life is distracting if not downright dangerous, and like said when used everywhere people just adopt a blase attitude to any warning it may display anyway.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

It's not confusing at all.

The sign says you are allowed up to whatever, the bend says different. If someone can't figure out which of the two speeds they should be travelling at then they really deserve to plough straight through the hedge. That'll learn 'em.

and in london they seem keen on putting them in 30mph zones (residential area not signed as anything other) that do that tell you to slow down when you pass at 25mph. huh?

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction