Safe Speed Forums

There is I believe a school of thought that the drink-drive limits, like the speed limits are arbitory and should be relaxed. I'm not sure if I subscribe to that train of thought but would be very interested in other peoples views.

Its a dificult issue because no one can know what their blood alcahol level is especialy if they had a drink the night before.

I do not drink at all so it would be easy for me to go the zero tollerance route but that is not practical.

I think that things should stay as they are. It seems to work. From what I undertstand those who are actualy involved in an injury accident caused by drink driving are usualy orders of magnitude over the limit anyway so any change would have no effect.

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Speed camera policy Kills

Personally I'm in favour of zero tolerance. I never drink a drop if I have to drive the same day, or if I have to drive the next day I limit myself heavily. I know myself well enough to know that a small amount of aclohol (well below the 'limit') is enough to screw up my driving. I think its very hard to know how alcohol will affect someone, so better to be safe than sorry IMHO

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Have you checked out the poll on drink drive limits and breath testing? http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2758
I'm all for keeping the current limit, but wouldn't object to random testing if they didn't go OTT with it. But if I'm driving I won't have a drop because it's a hell of a lot easier to keep track of how many drinks you've had when it's zero all night long. No drink at all if I'm driving within 24 hours is my personal rule. I make up for this by getting completely sphinctered when I'm not driving.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Also see my webpage on

Why speeding will never become as socially unacceptable as drink-driving

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

I'm quite happy with the limits as they are now. Would not favour any relaxation of them, as I believe there is enough tolerance to allow for the morning after the night before scenario. I don't have any sympathy for anyone still over the limit in the morning, but would not support zero tolerance. Unless that means zero tolerance of anyone over the current limit, in which case I would definately support that. Hope that makes sense

People who get done for drink driving often seem to have drunk A LOT. Will tinkering with the limit really change these people's behaviour?

Saying that, I am often mystified by reports detailing a consumption of, for example, six pints, followed by a statement that the defendant was half again over the legal limit. If we are only meant to drink a couple of units, does this mean there is actually quite a factor of safety built in to this guidance, i.e. two units would put an emaciated dwarf over the limit?

For myself, I will have one pint and no more, as I can feel the effect on my driving with any more.

I also don't think a zero level would be practical, as there are an awful lot of medicinal things (mouthwash, cough sweets etc.) which have a element of drink in them.

The conventional wisdom is that a man of average build will need to consume five units (1 unit = 10 ml of pure alcohol) to put him over the limit, so two pints of ordinary strength beer will leave him below. However, this is inevitably going to be affected by various factors such as weight and whether he has had anything to eat, so it can't be regarded as reliable advice.

The person who drank six pints and was only 50% over the limit had probably done his drinking over a period of time and had already metabolised some of the alcohol.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Thanks everyone -some most interesting points. Interesting to see no-one supported the minority view that there should be no upper limit. I shan't say any more except I have once come across a person, with a web-site who promotes this view.

While I was not in favour of random testing a few years ago, I believe the numbers of DRUGGED UP and driving incidences have risen, and would like to see better awarness of the affects this has. Random testing would be an effective way to collect data.

Many over the counter medicines say "MAY cause drowsiness. If affected, do not drive or operate machinery"
Well this was the argument drink drivers used to use - "It doesn't affect my driving"
If it MIGHT cause drowsiness, DONT DRIVE, and Definately dont take alcohol at the same time in ANY amount.
Just my thoughts!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

The term "random testing" is often used to mean "unfettered discretion" which is something entirely different.

Genuine random testing is surely setting up a roadblock and testing every fourteenth driver, or whatever, which strikes me as a highly ineffective way of using police resources.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

likes been said the people who cause accidents tend to be the ones off their nuts anyway. the laws don't need to chnage unless someone can prove that people who've had 1 pint do actually cause significantly more accidents. whilst it is understood that alcohol does have an effect on the body, so do a lot of things. personally my driving is at it's worst when I'm in a bad mood or under pressure and I expect this goes for a lot of people.

besides everyone knows 1 pint relaxes you nicely but 6 trash your co-ordination completely, any casual pub pool player will confirm this.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Anyone who has had even one small drink knows that it's not a good idea to drive under the influence. Anyone who has ever driven knows that it you can't compare drink driving and speeding.


I have seen one such site but I (possibly incorrectly) though it was a pi$$ take.

Actually I think you're right. The site couldn't possibly be serious. It made some other pretty outrageous claims about firearms and the health giving properties of car exhausts!

Not to be taken seriously.

Now why does it not surprise me that you mention it?

If you do want an alternative view you could take a look at:

http://www.btinternet.com/~geh.drinkdrive/facts.htm

(which does not seem to have been updated since 1998)

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well, if you're really interested in other people's views, here's a few.

Perhaps you could come back with a synopsis of what your interest has led you to discover about the subject.


www.drink-driving.org.uk/ - Not drunk-driving

http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages ... Clower.htm
- The Safety Impact of Lowering the BAC Limits for Drivers by the Traffic Injury Research Foundation, Canada


http://www.consumeralert.org/fumento/drink.htm - Catch Drunks, Don't Harass Drivers

http://www.motorists.org/issues/dwi/lower_bac.html - Lower BACs Target
the Wrong Group

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/drinkdrv.html - "Drinking and Driving" vs. "Drunk Driving"

http://www.eurocare.org/ddriving.htm - Drink Driving Limits in Europe

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/00000002D38F.htm - Drink Driving Morality

http://www.btinternet.com/~geh.drinkdrive/facts.htm - Drink-driving - Why the fuss?

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000002D35F.htm - Bar, car, black sheep

http://www.fredoneverything.net/yyRoadDrunks.shtml - Road Drunks - How Drunk Is Too Drunk? And How Do We Want To Find Out?

http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s9p2.html - Grand Rapids Effects Revisited: Accidents, Alcohol and Risk

http://www.rupissed.com/index.html - Blood Alcohol Content Calculator

http://www.forcon.ca/learning/alcohol.html - Alcohol Absorption, Distribution & Elimination

http://www.beerandpub.com/newpages/drinkweb/ddhome.html - Drink Drive Facts

http://www.maui.net/~jms/alcohol.html - Facts About Drinking

http://www.iamnotofthisworld.com/drinking.htm - What Does The Bible Say About Drinking?


http://www.roadblock.org/maddbehaviour.html - Totally MADD behavior

http://www.brewingnews.com/greatlakes/9 ... drive.html - GLBN Dec '97 - Jan '98 Drinking and Driving Where Does the Real Danger Lie


http://www.subgenius.com/smurfs/damm.html - Drunks Against Mothers

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/MarkThyme/dui.html - Making the road safe for drunks


http://www.ukcia.org/lib/driving2.htm - UK Cannabis Internet Activists

http://www.shadoweyes.org/pfn/article22.htm - Shadow Eyes




http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/reports.html

http://www.cis.org.au/media/opeds2001/E131201.htm

http://www.cis.org.au/exechigh/EH2001/EH6601.html - The great drink-driving scandal

http://www.linguafranca.com/9803/hypo.html - Lingua Franca March 1998

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/departments/nrd-30/ncsa//

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30 ... 09-104.pdf - DOT HS 809 104 Alcohol Involvement in Fatal Crashes 1999

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30 ... 09-450.pdf - Estimates of Alcohol Involvement in Fatal Crashes Percent of Fatalities

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/department ... a/SDS.html


http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D35F.htm

http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol-info/Dr ... 05643.html Breath Analyzer Accuracy

http://www.google.co.uk/Articles/00000002D362.htm Have yourself a very scary Christmas, by Brendan O'Neill

http://www.google.co.uk/Articles/00000002D363.htm 'Sensible celebrating', by Munira Mirza

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Artic ... 43,00.html Anti-drink-driving campaign to build on past success, Guardian, 4 December 2001;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/healt ... 702181.stm Doctors want to trap drink drivers, BBC Online, 10 December 2001

http://media.guardian.co.uk/creative/0, ... 17,00.html 25 years of anti-drink-drive campaigns, MediaGuardian

http://raru.adelaide.edu.au/T95/paper/s9p2.html Grand Rapids effects revisited, HP Kruger et al, University of Wuerzburg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/specia ... 513325.stm Drink walking: there has to be a limit, BBC Online

http://www.dtlr.gov.uk/campaigns/ddc97/intro.htm Drink driving campaign 1997 - Introduction, DETR

http://motoring.telegraph.co.uk/motorin ... sum17.html Don't drink and drive, and don't preach, Daily Telegraph, 8 December 2001


You'll have to weed out the dead links and duplicates yourself I'm afraid.

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If you're a bit busy to go through those tonight:

Here's a few points to ponder:


Mellanby Effect

Effects Of Alcohol On The Human Body

Also, when a person consumes alcohol he passes through any particular alcohol level twice: once in the absorption phase, when the alcohol level is rising, and again once in the elimination phase, when the alcohol level is falling. It is well established that impairment is much more marked when the level is rising rather than when it is falling: this is known as the Mellanby Effect.

http://www.lion-breath.com/breffects.html

- They Make Breath testers for police!

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Alcohol And The Body

What Alcohol Does To The Body

Impairment and rising or falling BAC
Studies have shown that impairment is greater at a given blood alcohol level when BAC is increasing than for the same BAC when the blood alcohol level is falling. This is called the Mellanby effect.

http://www.criminal-lawyer.on.ca/alcohol-5.html


Alcohol And Driving

Impairment At Low BAC Levels

The scientific community is unable to replicate the real-world driving task (an over-learned task).

To assess the effects of alcohol on the ability to drive, researchers have disassembled the driving function into theoretical parts for study. Although there is some evidence that impairment in some individuals may begin at low BAC levels, this data must be treated with some caution. What is clear, however, is that most persons with a BAC of 100 mg% would suffer some impairment.

http://www.criminal-lawyer.on.ca/alcohol-6.html

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Combatting Drink Driving

A Fairer and More Effective Solution

2.3 There Is Evidence That Falling Alcohol Levels Are Less Dangerous Than Rising Ones

"Loosening the Grip", by Kinney & Leaton (ISBN No: 0-8016-2769-9), is a reference book used by practitioners dealing with alcohol problems. On page 47 it states that: "A drinker is more out of commission when the blood alcohol level is climbing than when it is falling ... As the blood alcohol level drops in the elimination phase, the individual, when similarly tested, will be able to function better with the same blood alcohol content."

This has the worrying implication that a law that is intended to deal with drink drivers who are creating a given hazard at a certain alcohol level is being applied against those who are unaware their blood still contains alcohol and who are anyway not causing the same level of hazard - if any at all - as the target group. Their treatment is thus doubly unjust.

http://www.abd.org.uk/abd-bac.htm


But then again, that loast one was posted by your "rABiD" mates.

I'm familiar with some of these links, but it's probably fair to say that in general they are arguing in favour of a drink-drive law that sets a "per se" prosecution threshold at around the point where significant impairment is likely (i.e. at 80 or 100 mg) rather than advocating a free-for-all.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Can I suggest that people repost their posts with alcohol substituted for speed, drinking for speeding, zero tolerance for speed limits and speed cameras for (random) breath testing.


And then read this:

First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


And then this:

All The Way Down The Slippery Slope: Gun Prohibition In England And Some Lessons For Civil Liberties In America

And no it's NOT about guns!


Is it any wonder the Georgeda's of the world are running the show!


Even s/he/it can run rings round you!

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Of course, you could all always fight back by piping up meekly at the back of the hall with a single "Rubbish".

If you time it right and strike lucky you could score one against him.


Just one, though!

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