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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 23:47 
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:lol: :lol:
This is defined very differently to how Krissi meant when she mentioned cadence or rhythm braking in a debate on a cycling site. :wink:


To explain ... :lol:


Cadence braking to a petrolhead type is DIY ABS a rapid, continuous and rhythmic pump and release on the brake to stop a wheel lock in an emergency and does require a lot of brain/foot co-ordination.

In cycling terms, this is really the number of turns a cyclist turns the pedals in one minute and not really the same thing at all – and I mention this because I read the replies at the time! :shock:

Cadence braking is a completely different skill and applies to stopping a vehicle in an emergency – especially in vehicles without an ABS system or if the ABS fails for some reason. Cadence braking enables the driver to control a wheel lock and steer out of danger whilst braking. 8-)

:wink: The only common factor is the rhythm of smooth footwork and it’s more a pedalling rhythm :wink:

A good pedalling rhythm strengthens the leg muscle 8-) and makes it easier to increase acceleration :D :D and sprint speeds. 8-) :D :wink:

Cadence is then about rhythm in much the same definition as in a construction of prose or poetry or even the close of a musical phrase or section. :lol:

In racing a high cadence obviously matters – and as with motor racing – techniques filter into everyday activity. :D We learn from track cycling days just as we learn from a motoring track days :D

. An increased cadence allows a cyclist to move at a comaparable speed :wink: within the flow of traffic and helps a cyclist “accelerate out of danger” :wink:

Try to aim for a cadence of 75-80 (about 20 mph). To build it takes practice – but we were told to build it by using low gears at first to develop the muscle power :)

I am trying to cover basics so that drivers on site are aware - should they return to riding or appreciate some of the skkills involved here - and I think there should be a source of reference so that cylsits can get some basic tips as a rule of thumb. I am sure many can chip in with their own tips here.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:21 
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hmmmm never really understand why they call it cadence braking, still dont particularly but ho hum.

your target cadence sounds a little low... i tend to aim for 90.

doing cadence drills on a static bike is a real eye opener, especially single leg drills :D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:31 
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ed_m wrote:
hmmmm never really understand why they call it cadence braking, still dont particularly but ho hum.


"cadence" means "with rhythm". It seems an 'OK' description for rhythmic brake application to me. But I have lived with it for a long time and as such may have just become used to it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 13:32 
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ed_m wrote:
your target cadence sounds a little low... i tend to aim for 90.

likewise but others, notably Jan Ullrich, get away with pushing bigger gears. 80s probably a good starting point for the inexperienced.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 18:38 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
ed_m wrote:
hmmmm never really understand why they call it cadence braking, still dont particularly but ho hum.


"cadence" means "with rhythm". It seems an 'OK' description for rhythmic brake application to me. But I have lived with it for a long time and as such may have just become used to it.


is cadence braking really about blindly pumping the pedal rhythmically? if so then i concede..... i always thought it was the process of applying the brakes until you feel the wheels lock, releasing the brakes (partially of fully) then applying again up to lock.. and repeat.. which t me implies a process which may or may not be errrmm.. rhythmic..

tell you what.. you stick with cadence braking.. thats fine by me :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 18:39 
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johnsher wrote:
ed_m wrote:
your target cadence sounds a little low... i tend to aim for 90.

likewise but others, notably Jan Ullrich, get away with pushing bigger gears. 80s probably a good starting point for the inexperienced.


do you think theres a relationship between that and getting dropped on the big climbs ? :evil:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 19:48 
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ed_m wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
ed_m wrote:
hmmmm never really understand why they call it cadence braking, still dont particularly but ho hum.


"cadence" means "with rhythm". It seems an 'OK' description for rhythmic brake application to me. But I have lived with it for a long time and as such may have just become used to it.


is cadence braking really about blindly pumping the pedal rhythmically? if so then i concede..... i always thought it was the process of applying the brakes until you feel the wheels lock, releasing the brakes (partially of fully) then applying again up to lock.. and repeat.. which t me implies a process which may or may not be errrmm.. rhythmic..

tell you what.. you stick with cadence braking.. thats fine by me :twisted:


Nein Liebchen - you misunderstand. Ist not about blindly pumping brake rhythmically - but there ist still a rhythm to it. It make most of the tyre adhesion on bad or slippy surface or in a wheel lock in dry condition. Ist a skill which allow you to steer through danger whilst braking und ist why IG call it DIY ABS :wink:

Ist not as effective as ABS in reality but if you are in car like Moggie or Stag etc which are pre- ABS - ist life saver if you can do it. Its problem ist that you have to lock the wheels as part of the on- off cycle und this ist also a part of the cadence or rhythm if you like. :wink: und you can only steer when brake pedal ist released. In reality you steer in between each downward pump of the brake - when the wheels are rotating. What you are doing ist braking und then steering und I learned to do this with my Papa und he made me talk myself through it with "pump- release - pump - release" in the rythm und we were on a skid pan at the time :laugh: :yikes: Und then IG took me on refresher when he was getting me back on road on my recovery. He ist tougher teacher than Papa ... :wink:


It is rhythmic as you are keeping in tune with the feel of the car's suspension und this helps keep stability. basically you have to ensure your downward stroke ist hard enough to provoke the wheel lock und this means you can get the right amount of rythm und steer with practice.

Ist an acquired skill though und you are best to pracice on track or skid pan area.

But ist not the same as cadence in bicyling terms. Und I try to aim at a cadence of 90 but I have to be so careful on hills as tend to get out of puff on the steepest ones und cannot manage some of the tougher gradients around here so I push it up :wink: I cheat! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 19:59 
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WildCat wrote:
It is rhythmic as you are keeping in tune with the feel of the car's suspension und this helps keep stability...


Yes. I think this is the key. It's the suspension that sets the optimal rhythm.

Nice post Wildcat!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 20:13 
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hmm.. sorry to divert the thread...(please split)... if your focus is on the rhythm then you're not really responding to the response of the wheels? if the surface under-wheel varies slightly you should in principle be applying more or less each time.. which would not be very rhythmic.

only querying really as working with and tuning ABS to take advantage of the grip available..... is anything but smooth (as you'll know from the pedal feedback)!

fortunately its not something i've had to do as any wheel lock i've had without ABS has been either at a low enough speed not to cause a problem or on a test track, where we were learning threshold braking not cadence. the one time i've had an avoidance manoeuvre that it may have come in useful i seem to have used the interference technique.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 21:58 
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ed_m wrote:
do you think theres a relationship between that and getting dropped on the big climbs ? :evil:

I'm sure it doesn't help but not many were able to keep up with Lance. Eating all those pies didn't help him either :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:20 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
WildCat wrote:
It is rhythmic as you are keeping in tune with the feel of the car's suspension und this helps keep stability...


Yes. I think this is the key. It's the suspension that sets the optimal rhythm.

Nice post Wildcat!
I agree, in fact I'd go further. To me cadence braking goes far beyond ABS as it is about setting up a "pendulum" rhythm in the suspension, so that the car is diving forwards as you brake and rocking back as you lift, thus the front wheels have a momentarily large downforce and therefore more mechanical traction just at the point the braking cycle is at it's largest, and at that instant the braking effort actually exceeds what could be managed in a smooth progressive brake.

During the "pedal release" phase it becomes similar to "interference braking", in that any steering that has been applied can now take effect. Similar but not identical, as I picture true "interference braking" as being a dry road technique, where you scream up towards an obstacle with wheels firmly locked and smoke pouring from the tyres before the brakes are released to permit avoidance steering at the last minute. With cadence braking the wheels are hardly locked at all, only perhaps momentarily in order to "feel where the grip is" at the last instant before they are released in each cycle.

In a nutshell, interference braking is brutal, cadence is subtle. ABS tries to do both electronically and makes a moderately good job of it, though it's fatal flaw is that it is unaware of the conditions so tends to lock the wheels too much in some conditions and not enough in others.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:25 
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JT wrote:
... To me cadence braking goes far beyond ABS as it is about setting up a "pendulum" rhythm in the suspension, so that the car is diving forwards as you brake and rocking back as you lift, thus the front wheels have a momentarily large downforce and therefore more mechanical traction just at the point the braking cycle is at it's largest, and at that instant the braking effort actually exceeds what could be managed in a smooth progressive brake.


I don't think so JT. A little more at the front exactly balanced by a little less at the back.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:28 
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ed_m wrote:
hmm.. sorry to divert the thread...(please split)


I had a look at splitting the thread, but there's a bit too much 'interwovenness' ( :) ).

But please don't worry - topic drift is an acceptable fact of life.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:33 
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With interference braking the front wheels retain most of the weight for the steering effect, meaning oversteer is likely and *will* need to be caught. In cadence braking, done right, the weight moves off the front wheels in the release phase and steering effect will be quite low.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:40 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
JT wrote:
... To me cadence braking goes far beyond ABS as it is about setting up a "pendulum" rhythm in the suspension, so that the car is diving forwards as you brake and rocking back as you lift, thus the front wheels have a momentarily large downforce and therefore more mechanical traction just at the point the braking cycle is at it's largest, and at that instant the braking effort actually exceeds what could be managed in a smooth progressive brake.


I don't think so JT. A little more at the front exactly balanced by a little less at the back.

But what about the "bounce" effect? Think of the suspension acting a bit like a pogo stick!

Perhaps think also of a sporting trials car scrabbling for grip up a silly steep hill. Both occupants bounce up and down in their seats giving a momentary boost to mechanical grip and away the car goes.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 22:49 
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JT wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
JT wrote:
... To me cadence braking goes far beyond ABS as it is about setting up a "pendulum" rhythm in the suspension, so that the car is diving forwards as you brake and rocking back as you lift, thus the front wheels have a momentarily large downforce and therefore more mechanical traction just at the point the braking cycle is at it's largest, and at that instant the braking effort actually exceeds what could be managed in a smooth progressive brake.


I don't think so JT. A little more at the front exactly balanced by a little less at the back.

But what about the "bounce" effect? Think of the suspension acting a bit like a pogo stick!

Perhaps think also of a sporting trials car scrabbling for grip up a silly steep hill. Both occupants bounce up and down in their seats giving a momentary boost to mechanical grip and away the car goes.


Yep. You might have something there. It has to be 'paid back' of course with less grip available on the up bounce.

I feel a brainstorming topic coming on...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 23:18 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
I feel a brainstorming topic coming on...


aha... i thought thats what it was.... i like it.


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