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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 20:14 
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official pr wrote:
PRAISE FOR A77 DRIVERS AS SPEEDS FALL

Drivers on the A77 in South Ayrshire are being praised for cutting down on
their speed following the publication of statistics for the first three
months of the SPECS average speed safety camera system.
Figures just released by the Strathclyde Safety Camera Partnership show that
there have been just 21 speeding offenders caught by camera during the
months of August, September and October.
Chief Inspector Paul Fleming of Strathclyde Police, commented: "This is
most encouraging. The purpose of the cameras, which were launched with a
blaze of publicity in the summer, is to encourage drivers not to speed on
this road where there have been so many tragic crashes in recent years.
"The very low number of offenders shows clearly that the message is being
taken on board by drivers.
"Speed monitoring also shows huge reductions in the number of vehicles
exceeding the speed limits - up to 87 per cent fewer on the dual carriageway
sections and up to 78 per cent fewer on the single carriageways - than
before the cameras went in."
He continued: "Monitoring of traffic numbers also shows that there is no
evidence of traffic diverting on to side roads. In studies carried out in
June and September by South Ayrshire Council on the A719 north of Turnberry
and the B734 east of Girvan there was no increase in vehicles recorded.
Similar monitoring on the A77 shows no decrease in traffic on the main
route."
Sheena Borthwick-Toomey of the A77 Safety Group welcomed the news: "I drive
regularly on the A77 and I think any motorist who travels this road will
recognise the positive effect of the cameras in cutting speeds.
"They do not present a total solution to making the A77 safer but are an
important element in the road safety strategy for the route.
"High speeds lead to higher risk of crashes and more serious resulting
injuries, so effective action to address this is to be warmly welcomed."


Translation: OH MY GOD! These cameras aren't going to pay for themselves!

I've given the following comments to press this afternoon:

> Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
> (www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "It's a huge mistake to equate reduced speeds
> with improved road safety. It's far too simplistic. It's extremely rare to
> find anywhere on the road network where responsible drivers exceed a safe and
> appropriate speed according to the conditions."
>
> "We need to be concerned instead about a small but highly dangerous
> irresponsible group who use speed recklessly. Unfortunately they are
> frequently unlicenced, driving stolen cars or otherwise far outside the law
> and as such don't give a fig about speed cameras."
>
> "Eventually - and we'll have to wait a long time - crash statistics will prove
> that asking A77 drivers to concentrate on their speedos instead of the road
> ahead was counter-productive."


Edited to add: translation number 2: "And there's NOTHING encouraging in the crash stats."

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 20:41 
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Well said paul. I have just been through roadworks on the M1 with Specs. Spent the whole time looking down at my speedo just in case I wandered over the limit. Caught myself too close to the cones on occasions.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 21:18 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Yes - felt the same way going through the ones after J16 on M6 earlier this year.

Now the piece says -
""Speed monitoring also shows huge reductions in the number of vehicles
exceeding the speed limits - up to 87 per cent fewer on the dual carriageway
sections and up to 78 per cent fewer on the single carriageways - than
before the cameras went in."

AH ,but did they monitor the sites for 24 /7 for a comparable lenght of time - this figure is compared to the monitoring that they did .
Could be that in the middle of the night all drivers exceeded the limits , b]because it was safe to do so [/b]
Or they picked quiet times during the day .
Just when did they take a random sample - day / night / or on a sunday afternoon??
Was the sample sufficient to be representative of the conditions.

Pretty speech by Chief Inspector Paul Fleming of Strathclyde Police, uses a lot of words , says little.

As Paul says ,"Translation: OH MY GOD! These cameras aren't going to pay for themselves! ", how can we justify all this expenditure?

:shock:


Perhaps the application of the other sort of specs is called for to look at the problem realisticaly.Like we need human cops in cars.








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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 23:23 
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The scamera folk love to talk about the "reduction in speeding" -- since by definition installing a speed camera will lead to less people breaking the speed limit.

The far more important question of whether accidents have reduced is all too frequently ignored.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 02:47 
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I just read this article and thought it would be posted.

IIRC a SPECS system costs many hundreds of thousands of pounds. 21 tickets = £1260, probably just enough to pay for the concrete for one of the foundations.

edit: Just read that it cost £770,000 :shock:

Gareth


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:23 
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I drove through the M6 specs for the first time yesterday (N & S) religiously kept to the limit on the way up and it was incredibly sapping. How can it be safe?

found myself driving normally on the way down......have to admit that I have no Idea if I exceeded the average speed limit.........I was driving safely....but now terrified that I may have a letter.

SPECs is a nightmare!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:45 
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I am expecting a drop in the prosecution threshhold for these cameras, and then another announcement in six months tut-tutting at the increase in 'dangerous speeders', all the while nothing having changed.

Then of course the accident statistics for the year will appear three months later and show either no reduction or a slight increase....

See how the propaganda machine works???

:gatso3:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:59 
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We should also consider the possibility that the reason they have caught so few is really because the cameras aren't working properly. Downtime, flaky number plate recognition and so on.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 13:15 
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Now we can await the spin that proclames:

"No motorcyclists have been caught speeding through the SPECS monitored sections of the A77. This really is encouraging as speeding by motorcyclists is extremely dangerous. It is also good news that no foreign vehicles have been caught speeding either, especially in view of the large number of S. Irish registered trucks and cars using this road. The new level of responsibility being shown by motorcyclists and foreign drivers is a model that U.K. registered car and truck drivers should follow".

Then someone will have to tell them that motorcyclists and foreign registered vehicles are 'SPECS-exempt'!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 13:31 
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As a matter of interest, how does everyone here approach the awkward business of trying to drive safely through road works protected by SPECS cameras? I'm being serious now.

Because the need to maintain the speed limit is continual, an occasional glance simply isn't good enough. Nor can you deal with it as an isolated hazard, like a GATSO or talivan. Here are some possible approaches...

1. Re-setting the average speed readout on the trip computer as you pass the first camera. You can then ignore the normal speedo and instead concentrate on driving safely, checking the average occasionally, and adjusting accordingly. The problem is that if it does creep too high then you end up having (almost) no option but to slow right down just before the second camera, which is dangerous.
2. Staying comfortably under the limit. Not good, as you will get heavily tailgated.
3. Checking the speedo every few seconds.
4. Cruise control. My present car has this, so I can latch it in at the start and stay bang on the limit. Problem is that you tend to creep up on other cars and your reluctance to cancel it has you following closer than you otherwise would do, also you can still overspeed in downhill sections, and finally it tends to induce a "sit back and relax" attitude, which again isn't good.
5. Pick another vehicle to tailgate through each camera, then drive as normal. Problems are self-evident.

I can't come up with a "right" solution. What does everyone do? I might run this as a poll, in which case are there any more methods to add to the list above?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 13:53 
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JT wrote:
4. Cruise control. My present car has this, so I can latch it in at the start and stay bang on the limit. Problem is that you tend to creep up on other cars and your reluctance to cancel it has you following closer than you otherwise would do, also you can still overspeed in downhill sections, and finally it tends to induce a "sit back and relax" attitude, which again isn't good.

Better than this is a speed limiter - I can set mine to (say) 45 in a 40, 56 in a 50 or whatever and be assured I won't creep over the average within the SPECS area. Cruise control, which I also have, hasn't proved very useful in the UK context - there simply aren't enough wide open roads where you aren't forced to slow down for other traffic, or for an unncessarily reduced speed limit every few miles :x

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 13:57 
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I think using the trip computer is a good idea. Then if you get slowed down by congestion, you can see how much and for how long you can exceed the posted limit to make up time! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:02 
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mrtd wrote:
I think using the trip computer is a good idea. Then if you get slowed down by congestion, you can see how much and for how long you can exceed the posted limit to make up time! :wink:

One can almost hear the downstream camera making a "humph!" sound as you blatter past at warp factor 9 (average speed 39.8).

Any serious suggestions. We're all agreed that these bloody things are a hazard, what's the best way to minimise this?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:12 
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JT wrote:
Any serious suggestions. We're all agreed that these bloody things are a hazard, what's the best way to minimise this?

Broken front plate?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:15 
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JT wrote:
Any serious suggestions. We're all agreed that these bloody things are a hazard, what's the best way to minimise this?


Join Safe Speed? :)

When I was at the RoSPA conference in Wales, my opponent Robert Gifford of PACTS was describing his experience of SPECS to the audience. He told us that he had driven three miles at 40mph in SPECS, and wasn't it marvellous that the XJS that stayed alongside him for THREE MILES couldn't speed.

That's 4.5 minutes alongside another vehicle. I feel uncomfortable if it goes on for 3 seconds.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 14:51 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
That's 4.5 minutes alongside another vehicle. I feel uncomfortable if it goes on for 3 seconds.

That's exactly why using cruise control makes me uneasy - you are forever "creeping" past other cars instead of decisively overtaking them - or not, as the case may be.

Which makes me wonder how lorry drivers cope with drifting backwards and forwards past each other according to the whim of their speed limiters. I can only conclude that in time they must get de-sensitised to this, such that they cease to regard being alongside another vehicle as hazardous. I find that thought very worrying.

Back to the topic, has anyone got any surefire way of driving safely through a SPECS system? It would be very interesting to formulate this up into a suitable question for some motoring authorities to have a go at. Given their proliferation, could we perhaps approach the DfT to encourage them to issue some specific guidance on how to deal with them, if only to flag up just how dangerous they are, in that they make law observance and safety mutually exclusive aims - more so than even any other camera system.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:09 
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JT wrote:
I can only conclude that in time they must get de-sensitised to this...


:yesyes:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:12 
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JT wrote:
Back to the topic, has anyone got any surefire way of driving safely through a SPECS system?

Do mean safely without getting a ticket or safely as in not having an accident? The gov't and SCP would (honestly) say thay all you need to do is obey and highway code and not exceed the limit and they will be happy.

As for technically doing so, it should be technically possible for the Road Angel or similar devices to calculate your cumulative average speed through a SPECS system and (for instance) let you know the maximum speed you could travel at for the rest of the zone. Not that I would encourage that of course, in fact I expect such a feature would be slightly dodgy.

Gareth


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 15:19 
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g_attrill wrote:
JT wrote:
Back to the topic, has anyone got any surefire way of driving safely through a SPECS system?

Do mean safely without getting a ticket or safely as in not having an accident? The gov't and SCP would (honestly) say thay all you need to do is obey and highway code and not exceed the limit and they will be happy.

Perhaps the question would need to be framed along the lines of "how often is a speedo check recommended, to ensure that the average speed isn't inadvertedly exceeded?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 22:08 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
JT wrote:
I can only conclude that in time they must get de-sensitised to this...


:yesyes:


I personally would not agree, I drive artics for a living, and I don't like to have another artic alongside me for mile after mile, I feel it IS unsafe, to cancel the effect, I usually slow down a touch and let the other truck past me.

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