Safe Speed Forums

Seriously now, I think the tree is likely to be quite a bit worse than the 40mph car. Trees are hard and narrow. If you hit it nice and square you won't get the proper crumple zone effect after the engine block starts on the tree. With another car - also crumpling - the forces are likely to be more widely distributed, and the peak deceleration is likely to be significantly lower.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Depends on how you connect, really. You might also get a situation with a head-on that the two engine blocks will collide before the crumple zones have done their work, or you might hit the tree on a corner so the engine block doesn't really connect the tree fully.
Let's substitute the tree with a really solid cocrete wall. Hitting this squarely and hitting an oncoming car squarely would have about the same effect.

Regards
Peter

Yes, things like trees and lamp-posts are about the worst things you can hit, because they don't give, and they concentrate all the impact into one point so are very likely to defeat the crumple zones and intrude on the occupants - especially if you hit them sideways.

A lot of people think that a tree offers a relatively "soft landing", but nothing could be further from the truth. Paradoxically, a nice solid looking dry stone wall actually crumples beautifully, dissipating energy steadily as it collapses.

But best of all is undoubtedly a giant marshmallow...

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

Trees most definately do not move.

Dry stone wall have a sickenning effect of deflecting you right into the nearest unforgiving tree.

I'm with Gameboy here. Skinny little saplings aside I doubt that hitting a tree is much fun. I'd imagine a grown tree is going to have a big root system and be much more solidly anchored than most street furniture. I'd still prefer to avoid crashing into anything. Even giant marshmallows rot your teeth.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Am now picturing cars crashing into giant marshmallows, wonderful !
Anyone remember "The Prisoner" ? ...that place would be great to have an accident if you collided with one of those enormous bouncy bubble things, perhaps we should be scattering these liberally around accident black spots !

On a sort-of related topic, does anyone have any experience with (front) air-bags? I would specifically like to know how tall a passenger in the front passenger seat needs to be for maximum effectivity. What if the passenger is shorter, is the air-bag then completely ineffective? How hard is the force when the air-bag goes off?
The car in question is a Renault Megane Scenic (old model).

Supertramp, have you tried asking the Euro-NCAP lot about your Scenic? http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=7&id2=83 covers the slightly older model Scenic, although it doesn't go into as much detail as you're after. But it's interesting, since you mention driver heights, that the side impact section says, "The Scenic achieved a full score. There was concern that while the padding in the door suited the seating position used, it may not give the same protection to drivers much above or below average size."
People come in more sizes than crash test dummies I suppose.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

Thanks, Gatsobait, neat site with interesting info.

I was interested because I have been hearing stories involving people getting injured or even killed by airbags deploying, dependent on heights, distances, type etc. So there you are, driving with an airbag thinking you're protected by it, when in reality if the passenger is leaning forward or a bit too short, the airbag deploying could do more damage than the bump that caused it to deploy!
I hope I'm being over-pessimistic in this scenario, but it would be interesting to hear from people who have actually been in a car when the airbag has deployed.
Or maybe this is better for a car-enthusiast forum?? Moderator?

Feel free.

I have to say I'm not entirely comfortable with explosive devices. As an engineer I know from long experience that technical devices malfunction. What happens when an airbag malfunctions? What happens when it's ten years old? What happens when the bloke at the garage tries to fix the dashboard lights? If I have a little accident at 70mph, lose 10mph and the airbag deploys will I still be able to control the car - now travelling at 60mph? How many eardrums are damaged by airbag deployment?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Ok, I've started a thread on Pistonheads. Loads of knowledgeable and opinionated enthusiasts there (all with a great sense of humour!):
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... 2&f=23&h=0

Apparently it's most important to sit a bit BACK from the airbag to give it time to fully deploy before you hit it. Height seems to be less important. So, you learn something new every day

How come you had head on crunch at that speed? One or the other or both of you were not applying our friend COAST!


Can see where you may not trust "human machines"


Been to a lot of accident scenes over good many years - all caused by variety of different reasons - SPEED, misjudge of speed, driver/vehicle capabilities, drink, drugs, dodgy tyres and presures, no windscreen wash, no wipers, misjudging road layout, weather - and most of things could be reduced with proper educational campaigns instead of over emphasis on the one crime!

Fact is - crunch at any speed is going to be nasty - which is why the emphasis should be on driver education by human touch and not left to machine to cause Pavlov dog training of braking for a speed camera and then speeding up again! (And basingwerk - we hide ourselves in our patch - you know old fashioned lurking and larking about with bagful of doughnuts and a couple of hairdryers! )

Works - every time!

It works - better than elsewhere! EU has less scams, and are even increasing traf pol presence. France is concentrating on seat belts and drink driving - which kill more there than speed per se, and German speaking countries are trying out educational DVDs for offenders as part of retraining programme. Over there - they get invited to station to see evidence first and get educational lecture at same time. Bit different form here - where it is pay up and learn nothing other than resentment! Again - human touch! Works very well - people need it!

Hiding a scam means panic braking all the more as they see box at last minute and screech to a halt as well.. at least with us on our patch - they feel a lot less peeved and get learning experience as to why action was so dangerous there and then! No get out and no claming "they cannot remember who was driving at the time!"

Or check out our Tigers on Cumbria's site - they have given insight into current German practices - the nerd typed it - and he is "in the know" job over there! Think that is good use of technology - use CCTV footage of offender's car and make personal "what if" DVD showing potential consequences of the behaviour! Seems reasonable to me!

As for impact of crunch - as you know we lost cousin when articulated truck hit him. He was in slow moving traffic when the truck on opposite carriageway had blow out (tyres were under pressure, worn and brakes were also defective) and crashed through central reserve and hit him head on - at slow impact for both vehicles. Ferdl died instantly (and it was very messy!) - and we are thankful that it would have been "painless" for him - but it was a waste of a valuable person - professionally and personally - he was a good mate!

My young cousin - WildCat (the Mad Doc's wife) - you all know what happened to certain extent.

You have only my word for it - but she is very pretty - tall, slim and curvy in the right places!

She has some very nasty scars on the front of her body from shoulder to groin - not nice for a very attractive woman who takes pride in her appearance. She was in hospital for a long time and she missed out on bringing up their eldest kids.

She was in traffic queue on motorway, had stopped with textbook space between her car and the large vehicle in front of her. The man had a stroke and heart attack - and we are charitable enough to concede for sake of his widow that he may have hit throttle instead of brake during his death throes. He increased his speed, continued to do so according to the investigations into this, and his seat belt came loose as well, He hit Wildy's car at at least 80 mph and he flew through his windscreen and through her rear with the impact.

Difficult to say whether or not the space between her car and the vehicle in front increased or reduced the consquences: her car certainly catapulted forwards under the impact and hit the vehicle in front - and the impact caused that one to hit another car too!

Wildy had seen it coming and took whatever cover she could under the circumstances - but she got impailed on the gear stick and crunched against the engine mounting when the car crumpled. Numerous injuries - broken arms, legs ribs, and she nearly bled to death at the site. So - we know what happens only too well - from personal experiences as well as professional - and we still say a speed camera deployed in current fashion is not the answer! How would a speed camera have prevented either of these incidents?


- answer --- It would not , and no technological doo-dah would have made any difference. GPS tracking and satellite tracking to pin point site of accident to control room? How would that help? Every gadget on dash in both cars was destroyed in this incident!

And in any case - even though a cop was on hard shoulder and saw all this happening in front of him - it still did not get those ambulances and fire crews to her any quicker. She is alive today - mainly because that cop got blankets, kept her warm, chatted and reassured her, and managed to apply sufficient pressure to staunch the blood loss at the time before the paramedics finally arrived. It was a close call - you know - but all credit to her - she battled to recover and do so successfully! She has even given birth since and expecting another! What a woman!

Education - making people aware of how illnees, fatigue and defective vehicle can kill just as much as choosing an unsafe speed for road conditions! That is more valid and where the investment in road safety should be - and in trafpols - we are trained in emergency first aid as well!

A machine is never going to be able to monitor this! Using technology just because it exists is not the right way. You need to have risk assessments, investigate and implemnet so that you get correct mix of human being using a deploying technology to achieve best result.

That is not happening - and never will so long as we have blinkered know-alls who know nothing about nothing in charge!

Machines cannot control and educate - people can! And you cannot get away from the fact that traffic police (not saying it to protect my own and colleagues' interests here) are needed on the road and are better at controlling pests than a scamera! (Not averse to using mobiles and lurking with me doughnuts and hairdryer - though! Especially if we get paid overtime! )

Things will hurt whatever speed. What is required is the prevention via that training myself, I-G, my wife (WildCat on PH) and the mobsters in this family currently ruffling the Cumbria eejit's furs on his forum!

basingwerk - a lot depends on whereabouts on your body you received even a minor hit as to how much damage is caused.

Having said that - just spent blissful forthight driving at 81.25 mph on continent and lot higher on A/bahn!

Funny - they seem to be able to drive without too many "incidente" over there despite higher speed limit and despite some rather dodgy tight sliproads which make my faves over here look like non-starters in the pop parade of dodgy slip roads!



Not really - if that were so - would have seen lot more accidents where I have been and they were all above 80mph!

Things are less likely to happen if we have proper education and emphasise COAST, and even go towards introducing those assessments we keep droning on about.

All the technology in the world will not compensate for lack of driver education and training - and every commercial break I saw in Switzerland and other carries them! Most of them run rings around "Think!" and their current Drink Drive is a belter!




Germany - they go very fast! Accident wise on A/bahn - no more nor less dangerous than over here!

But as you know - have always said - we cannot even increase to 81.25 mph unless we improve initial L-Test and teach overtaking, motorway driving to at least general EU standards (excluding (shudder - Belgium - shudder - but even then - I would blame their road surfaces - worn out stretches along the autoroute around Brussels

Ah! But that is one of the problems - and we can all name roads which have too high and too low a limit.

Lancs has plenty of downgraded dual carriageways from 50 mph to 30 mph and enforced by scameera. They never consulted locals either before they did this - and A560 in Wythenshawe - first the people who actually live on that road knew about it according to colleague in the big hospital there -- was whne they took down the 40 mph lollipop and stuck up red oblong hidden tucked away out of sight behibnd parked cars in a lay -by and one obscured by a bus shelter. Talivan appeared within 5 working days to enforce this new limit and - rumour has it - they copped loads of cash!

There were few crashes on any of these roads before the scams - but number of rear-enders has increased since! Wonder why?

Oh - course - panic braking when they notice talivan or hidden Gatso - which may be yellow but invisible until theey see the line markings on road way!

Then there are the ones through villages in Lancs, Cumbria and Brunstromia which can be 40-60 mph and thus too high! But --- sparse population, relatively remote (despite accidents occurring there) and no viable - cos they may meet all guideline criteria on road safety issues - but do not fit the bill on REVENUE RAISING!

Get the picture - mate? Nowt to do with safety - that is urban myth!





Really? Free up money which can be used for better purposes such as saving lives?

Funny? Not seen any increase on coppers on the beat - only those cheapo pretend ones who need next to no qualifications to do the job - badly!

Do you think the money goes into NHS?

Hahahahaha!

You try buying the drugs you would like to treat your cases off my budget (though have to say - dearest one is not always best one for the patient - we prescribe what we think will suit thir medical history as well - but even so ..)

Oh - on beds? hahahahaha! That's a good one! And of course - there is my running battle with hygiene and MRSA - (NOT in my hospital - we actually boil our water and WASH!!!)


Oh - perhaps you it is spent on (gassp!) education

Err? Why do think I send mine to a private school? Cos I enjoy parting with me money?

NOPE!

Want a school which will discipline my little horrors and drum at least the times tables into them!

(Still have fights over homework though - and the girly stuff with my daughter and make-up - chicken out of that one! I am not that brave!)



Just as many accidents happen at and under speed limit as above. You only get reports of the naughty speedy ones in the paper - unless of course it was a horror such as Wildy's incident




But punishing millions for piddling offence such as 1-4mph drift for very short distance is not fair and fitting means of dealing with this - and the nutters are such wide boys - they manage to avoid with or without the useful gadgets.

We need the correction in the form of what we had bec=fore the scameras - chaps like I-G on the roads!

Plus periodic assessments if only to teach people how to utilise the safety gear in their shiny modern cars, and lots more sensible driving tip adverts!



No - it does not provide any data on general standards of driving.

It is more noticeable to me having just been abroad - driving - just how far standards have dropped.

Some of our guys who live over there are now over here - and they remark on each visit just how standards have dropped over past 4 years - since trafpols decreased and scams increased.

The people getting pinged are the just over drifts. The OTT speeders (probably our banned idiots, illegal drivers, asylum seekers and the like) could not give a toss if scam pings them because they are in those throw aways anyway.

Take a look see at some photos on the Cumbrian site - A595 Ings (and I know they do this as I pass them every day doing just that. That picture is not lying, not dressed up either! Our guys on there have already commented - but take a look!

I see a nice relaxing break still hasn't turned you into Mild Moggie.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

By how much can they reduce the chances of crashes or their consequences? You're a bright lad, you should be able to work this out mathematically. Then, if you got the maths right, you'll be able to see for yourself how weak that argument is.



But would 100% adherence lead to fewer accidents?
A number of accidents will occur both sides of the limit, regardless of where you put the limit - unless the limit is so high that nobody exceeds it or so low that everybody exceeds it.
The point is, will the total be any more or any less?
And, if so, how? By what mechanism?