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Motorway driving and speeds

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johnsher

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:52

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311

mpaton2004 wrote:

As I said earlier, I think the speed limit should be left as it is, for what is effectively 79 mph before enforcement.

actually, what you said was

mpaton2004 wrote:

I don't reasonably believe that 100mph needs to be exceeded at any time on a public road in any country (even Germany)

which is very different.

then this

Quote:

the speed limit is there and it is a lack of driver judgement to be exceeding it by such a margin.

why so if there's almost no traffic around or if most of the traffic is going 80+ anyway?

It sounds to me like you have a number fixation no better than current road 'safety' policy.

Quote:

I am a fair judge of speed.

in other words you have absolutely no idea how fast they were going and "at least" 70mph is just a random speed picked by you because it would be crazy to do it in most 30 zones.
Most likely they were going under 50. Perhaps it's no less appropriate but lets leave the guesswork to the pensioners and the scammers.

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hobbes

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:30

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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 18:39
Posts: 346

mpaton2004 wrote:

Quote:

a former 40 mph limit reduced to 30. I used to think it was ridiculously inappropriate given the width of the road and lack of hazards, but after I did the above, it now feels as normal as the former 40 limit did.

OK, what suddenly made this road 'hazardous'?, only YOUR perceptions after you altered your driving ethos. The road didn't change - you did.

Quote:

I am a fair judge of speed. I am not the local pensioners who say cars doing 40mph are 'racing' along - this was ridiculous. Imagine the view you get as you are stationary in a motorway jam and watching the other side flow freely at normal speeds. That's what it was like

OK, lets talk speed differential here.....following your example:

YOU (stationary), MOTORWAY traffic (70) - 70 mph.

The claimed '70mph' in 30 zone.
(and I do agree urban speeds of this level are highly innapropriate)

YOU (30mph), 'nutters' (70) = 100mph difference.

If you can't tell the difference between 70 & 100, perhaps some doubt should be cast over your speed perceptions. Especially in light of the first quote - where a drop in your speed by 25% felt the same/as normal as previous).

If we were to be converted to KM tonight, would the magic '100' still seem so fast? What about 150? Or 200? It's only an arbritrary number cooked up in the middle of the last century to stop your Morris Minor falling to bit at nearly TOP speed!

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civil engineer

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:27

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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)

I have on occasion found myself driving in the region of 100mph (sometimes more)

Clearly therefore I have no particular issue with it as such.

But I don't go at that speed through my local town centre.

I also tend to adjust my speed for things like.....heavy traffic, corners, roundabouts and rain.

Motorways should be unlimited, limits should only apply at particular places, junctions maybe....if they're in an appropriate place for an appropriate reason then maybe they'd have more respect.

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pogo

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 13:58

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Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 14:00
Posts: 1271
Location: Near Telford, UK / Barcelona, Spain

civil engineer wrote:

I also tend to adjust my speed for things ....

That, plus looking where you're going is (IMHO) the very essence of good driving!! Simple innit? :lol:

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

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civil engineer

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 15:51

Member

Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:30
Posts: 2053
Location: South Wales (Roving all UK)

Don't forget the steering!

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pogo

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 15:53

Life Member

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 14:00
Posts: 1271
Location: Near Telford, UK / Barcelona, Spain

civil engineer wrote:

Don't forget the steering!

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

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Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 17:45

User

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 20:20
Posts: 33
Location: London, UK

While we are on the subject of high speed motorway driving - I think I should show you guys this website

http://www.e31.net/index.html
It's not a plug, just a relevant example - but chose the language and then click videos, and take some time to look at the various motorway videos done by this guy driving a big BMW - trust me, suddenly 100mph will be a joke compared to the sort of speeds in these videos

My opinion on the whole high speed stuff is to keep it disciplined - doesn't matter what speed really. I do enjoy driving at 100mph or above, but that thrill is kept in my own space, in my own time - I would never bully drivers out the overtake lane just for the sake of achieving high speed or look for gaps to penetrate through congestion -

"if the conditions are not fit, tough luck I say, and save the speed (and your license probably) for another day"

- I remember driving down the M2 from Dover for the first time, and came across some very empty stretches of road where I was able to push into triple digits, but soon as I gained enough to feel the pace at which I was approaching the vehicles in the distant, I was already backing off

And finally, quite frankly, driving at the wrong speed in the wrong conditions only brings attention to yourself, and by that, I obviously mean the TrafPol :lol:

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Richard C

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 19:52

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 19:41
Posts: 201
Location: North East Wales

mpaton said

Quote:

I now drive a BMW 545i, which in your terms is "a decent car". My viewpoint hasn't changed.

I have just come back from a journey in which I have seen at least 4 drivers doing at least 70mph on a dark 30mph limit. Why do they think this is safe?

why did you think it was unsafe ?

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johnsher

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 20:42

Gold Member

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311

RR wrote:

My opinion on the whole high speed stuff is to keep it disciplined - doesn't matter what speed really.

so none of this then?

nutters

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mpaton2004

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 23:20

User

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

Richard C wrote:

mpaton said

Quote:

why did you think it was unsafe ?

Because:

a) the road is narrow
b) it has a blind junction around a corner where there is no escape zone if you do encounter a nutter
c) there is an river flowing over a drop at the side of the road
d) it's mainly unlit
e) it was dark
f) it had been raining

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mpaton2004

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 23:31

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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

hobbes wrote:

mpaton2004 wrote:

Quote:

OK, what suddenly made this road 'hazardous'?, only YOUR perceptions after you altered your driving ethos. The road didn't change - you did.

Nothing, the speed limit is probably inappropriate, but I have seen enforcement vans on there so you now have to be careful

I am simply referring to the perspective to offer a potential solution to the "inappropriately low speed limits lead to lack of concentration" problem. It's all a question of psychology. If you've been used to driving at 40-45 for years down a 40 limit which is now a 30, you're going to find it strange initially. By over-compensating downwards somewhat for the change in limit fo a while to readjust yourself - then going a few miles an hour faster feels different.

Quote:

If we were to be converted to KM tonight, would the magic '100' still seem so fast?

It's nothing to do with the number. 100 mph equates to 44 metres per second. So does 160 km/h.

The thing that worries me about having higher speeds is the people who think they are qualified to do them usually aren't.

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mpaton2004

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 23:39

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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

Quote:

why so if there's almost no traffic around or if most of the traffic is going 80+ anyway?

It sounds to me like you have a number fixation no better than current road 'safety' policy.

Not at all, I am simply asking a question about putting the motorway speed limit up to 80mph. What is the point? What exactly ill it achieve? I don't see any real world benefit to safety as in my experience on quieter motorways most people travel at roughly that speed as it is. What will the enforcement threshold be? 90? Where do you draw the line?

Quote:

I am a fair judge of speed.

in other words you have absolutely no idea how fast they were going and "at least" 70mph is just a random speed picked by you because it would be crazy to do it in most 30 zones.
Most likely they were going under 50. Perhaps it's no less appropriate but lets leave the guesswork to the pensioners and the scammers.

I find that comment somewhat of a personal attack on my judgement. Let it be known that my primary occupation requires me to be a very accurate judge of speed, and I consider myself so. I can quite confidently assure you that the car was not travelling at 50mph (which would have been equally inappropriate for the conditions.)

Regards,
Martin

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johnsher

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 00:08

Gold Member

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311

mpaton2004 wrote:

Not at all, I am simply asking a question about putting the motorway speed limit up to 80mph. What is the point? What exactly ill it achieve?

gee, could it mean that you could drive at 80mph without worrying whether there's a scamera van parked on the bridge around the corner?

Quote:

What will the enforcement threshold be? 90?

based on the current system, yes. What's the problem with that... except for:

Quote:

Where do you draw the line?

why draw a line at all?

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mpaton2004

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 00:32

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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

johnsher wrote:

mpaton2004 wrote:

Not at all, I am simply asking a question about putting the motorway speed limit up to 80mph. What is the point? What exactly ill it achieve?

gee, could it mean that you could drive at 80mph without worrying whether there's a scamera van parked on the bridge around the corner?

Quote:

based on the current system, yes. What's the problem with that...

You can drive at an indicated 80 anyway without worrying about enforcement.

My point is that if you put a higher limit in, people will ignore it, just like they do nowadays. My fear is that in inappropriate conditions a higher percentage of people will be driving at higher inappropriate speeds thinking that it's safe because of the complete lack of training and education that drivers receive.

I honestly don't think it would offer anything to road safety. I think separating HGVs and lighter traffic on motorways would do more than higher speed limits ever could.

Martin

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hobbes

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 01:11

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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 18:39
Posts: 346

mpaton2004 wrote:

Quote:

You can drive at an indicated 80 anyway without worrying about enforcement.

Martin

That's crap and you know it!

If I drove past a marked (or unmarked unit) doing 70 and I was at 80 I WOULD be pulled over and may or may not be NIP'd on the spot.
Mr LTi 20-20 would be all over my ass too! The only thing I MIGHT not trip is a Gatso! SPECS - expect a letter awading you points. 'Speeding' or correctly noted as 'exceeding the speed limit' is an offence the instant you exceed the posted limit. It is a generally acceted 'rule' that we, the public are given a 10% +2mph leeway, but this is not the law - and enforcement varies from force to force & scameraship to scameraship. You CAN be procecuted for 71 (never gonna happen though - too difficult to prove), and it does not actiually HAVE to be proved what speed you were actually going. The word of ONE P.C. can have you fined & pointed using his expert opinion only. No devices or readings required. As for partnership operators, these are BY LAW supposed to form an opinion of excessive speed BEFORE targeting a vehicle. IF they get lucky, and target a vehicle at say 75 - fair game. A faulty speedo etc. is no excuse. The law has been broken.

Come to think of it....and if you're not, sorry for thinking it but as you've wrote...

Quote:

I find that comment somewhat of a personal attack on my judgement. Let it be known that my primary occupation requires me to be a very accurate judge of speed, and I consider myself so.

Do you work for a partnership? Is this why you tow the party line of speed kills? And possibly bump-up your preliminary speed estimates and try to feed mis-information about not worrying about enforcement at 80? Trying to drum up some business eh? :lol:

I noticed you made no comment on the centre section of my last post about a possible error.

Quote:

Quote: YOU WROTE I am a fair judge of speed. I am not the local pensioners who say cars doing 40mph are 'racing' along - this was ridiculous. Imagine the view you get as you are stationary in a motorway jam and watching the other side flow freely at normal speeds. That's what it was like

I REPLIED
OK, lets talk speed differential here.....following your example:

YOU (stationary), MOTORWAY traffic (70) - 70 mph.

The claimed '70mph' in 30 zone.
(and I do agree urban speeds of this level are highly innapropriate)

YOU (30mph), 'nutters' (70) = 100mph difference.

If you can't tell the difference between 70 & 100, perhaps some doubt should be cast over your speed perceptions. Especially in light of the first quote - where a drop in your speed by 25% felt the same/as normal as previous).40 road changed to 30

Did I point out either a slip-up or just a simple example gone awry in the heat of typing?

ps. I'm not making this a personal attack on you, I believe I am simply pointing out several areas in which errors appear to have been made. I do not have evidence to believe you ARE in the employ of a partnership or enforcemnet agency, only humerous supposition clearly based on the replies you have made which can be made to fit the 'profile' of an individual very keen on adherance to the limits as they stand.

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Gixxer

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 01:13

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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 09:01
Posts: 1548

RR wrote:

trust me, suddenly 100mph will be a joke compared to the sort of speeds in these videos

While 188mph is moderately impressive for a family saloon, it doesn't quite get the juices flowing when you watch the likes of Ghostrider snapping the throttle open at 250mph and lifting the front wheel on pure power alone :wink:

hobbes wrote:

That's crap and you know it!

If I drove past a marked (or unmarked unit) doing 70 and I was at 80 I WOULD be pulled over and may or may not be NIP'd on the spot.

You must drive an absolute shed then, I have been past more Trafpol than I care to remember at an indicated 80 on the motorway and not had a second glance.

_________________
What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

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hobbes

Post subject:

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 01:29

User

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 18:39
Posts: 346

[quote="Gixxer]

Quote:

You must drive an absolute shed then, I have been past more Trafpol than I care to remember at an indicated 80 on the motorway and not had a second glance.

Nah, no sheds here I've got a '99 V6 Omega at the moment, they are just a bit 'militant' round here!! I got hauled over for creeeeeeping past them as they were at the head of a queue doing about 69.5 by my speedo. Must've been a good 30 cars just sitting there. I went "sod it" and went for a huge 72/73 and got flashed & pulled in the next layby. Just a mild telling off. "We were doing 70 and you passed us, do you know what the limit is on this road....blah blah"

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mpaton2004

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 02:02

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Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

hobbes wrote:

That's crap and you know it!

It may well have worked like that in the past - the reality is very different in the camera ridden country we have now... but point taken - I think you'd be very very unfortunate to get NIPed for 75, unless that speed was inappropriate at the time.

Quote:

YOU (30mph), 'nutters' (70) = 100mph difference.

Ah, but you are making the leap of faith here that motorway traffic is doing 70. In the fast lane (which is the primary view you get when observing from the opposite carriageway - they damn well aren't!)

While I concede that seventy miles per hour looks very different on a motorway compared to a small urban road, I am still extremely confident in my judgement. We're flogging a dead horse anyway here, the important fact from a road safety point of view is that it was a severely inappropriate speed for the prevalent conditions.

Quote:

I work for a major UK charter airline in flight ops (SFO).

When I'm not doing that I do additional but sporadic contract work as a IT consultant.

I have nothing to do with the partnerships (except when I write them letters of disgust at their attitudes to road safety!)

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johnsher

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 02:11

Gold Member

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311

mpaton2004 wrote:

You can drive at an indicated 80 anyway without worrying about enforcement.

as has already been said, good luck - just hope your speedo isn't accurate.

Quote:

My fear is that in inappropriate conditions a higher percentage of people will be driving at higher inappropriate speeds

that's what the the police are supposed to be there for.

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mpaton2004

Post subject: Re: Motorway driving and speeds.

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 02:17

User

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

Quote:

that's what the the police are supposed to be there for.

But they aren't, and aren't likely to be with this administration and their obsession with cameras.

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