Safe Speed Forums

no Pete317, the engine noise attracts attention, yes it could be a bus or a car revving in a low gear, but you never know until they come into vision

_________________
now retired

Camera op raises a valid point there - that of "percieved speed" being more about noise and acceleration than it is about numerical speed itself.

Notice how a car accelerating hard in 2nd gear (but still below 30mph) will get people on the pavement pulling their kids away from the road and scowling at the driver. Another car goes past them at a constant 50mph in 5th gear and they don't bat an eyelid. I see it all the time.

Sorry this was a bit off-topic.

_________________
“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

oh thank you

_________________
now retired

My point is that installing lower speed limits and/or cameras in response to "Resident's concerns" (as proposed recently by the new chief constable) is flawed, as it is based on the perception of speed (noise, acceleration, wheelspinning and other "boy racer" behaviour) rather than actual vehicle speeds.

The people who end up getting punished are not the ones that caused the complaints in the first place.

Sorry again for straying from the topic.

_________________
“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Cam Op,

do you form an opinion of the vehicle's speed prior to pulling the trigger?

of course i do
(LIAR)

no i would say around 80 - 90 % of the time an opinion is formed prior to pulling the trigger

antera309

My point is that installing lower speed limits and/or cameras in response to "Resident's concerns" (as proposed recently by the new chief constable) is flawed, as it is based on the perception of speed (noise, acceleration, wheelspinning and other "boy racer" behaviour) rather than actual vehicle speeds.


but only if the survey / 85th per centile shows there to be a problem, not my actual field but the amounts of requests for resident concern sites to sites actually set up is about 20:1

_________________
now retired

What do you do the other 10-20% of the time? Is any action taken against the drivers in these cases?

yes if they are speeding / over the threshold, the offence is dropped because i did not form a prior opinion, come off it.

how long does it take to form a prior opinion, i never knew there was a timescale listed anywhere

oncoming traffic - judge the speed from time the vehicle comes into view to the target zone, pull trigger

departing traffic - noise, flash as vehicle passes, pull trigger

_________________
now retired

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting you right, but can you confirm that it isn't dropped?

why should it be dropped, if i take a second to form a prior opinion / compared to a 5 day warning telegraph what is the difference, i can only act on the instincts, i could have 10 / 999 logs on the tape only those over the threshold get an nip

FOI an average 2 hour tape say 60/ 70 logs maybe 50 over the limit, maybe 2 / 3 over our threshold

_________________
now retired

If a prosecution goes ahead without the operator having formed a satisfactory prior opinion that the vehicle was speeding, then this implies that absolute trust is being placed in the accuracy of the measuring device. This is a pretty serious issue, as

1. It removes any protection against unexpected errors in the device, weak though that protection might have been,
2. It goes against the fundamental principles of how speeding law is framed in this country.

What if the case goes to court? If you were called as a witness and asked "Did you form a prior opinion of the vehicles speed?" under cross examination what do you say? Do you tell the truth, and therefore get the case chucked out (and no doubt serious questions asked about your operating methods), or do you knowingly lie under oath, a serious criminal offence?

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

So basically you're admitting to perjury because your statement/testimony that you formed a prior opinion may not be true for that particular incident!

You'll forgive me if my already low opinion of partnership/CPS staff just sank impossibly lower and I only hope one day someone holds you accountable for this and you are subject to the full penalty of the law for perjury!

My understanding is this

80% of the time you form a 'prior opinion'

20% of the time you do not - yet motorists in this category are still prosecuted.

so there is a 1 in 5 chance that the motorist will be un lawfully prosecuted.

Assuming of course that you are qualified to form a 'prior opinion'

This was the primary reason the ACPO issued new 'guidelines' (so that'll be rules then) to the scamerati telling them not to measure speeding drivers over a certain distance (500m?). The reason being that while the camera may well be able to sea if the driver shaved or not that day at 2KM. The officer cannot judge speed at that distance.

The distance of the recording from the camera site would therefore be vital is questionining the ops ability to judge speed - hence the pepipoo advice 'get the complete video' not just the stills they choose to send you

And we can expect that ratio to get worse as cash strapped partnership are 'forced' to increase enforcement in order to make up cash shortages from illegal prosecutions.

The scamerati may actually get scrapped on business grounds rather than safety grounds. Shrinking customer base, higher cost of sale = doomed

Establishing speed by listening is dead easy when you know how, that's why the van doors being closed don't make the slightest difference........
Also easy to form a prior opinion when the vehicle comes round a bend, and you've got about .000001 seconds to compare to other traffic, form an opinion, then get behind the laser and get a nice solid shot of the number plate without wobbling, slippage etc.
And even easier when you're using the laser on a tripod out on the pavement whilst hiding behind a hedge yards away.
Honestly, training and technology nowadays is amazing.

assuming that you all have experience in sitting behind a LTI, concentrating and monitoring the traffic flow, and from the experience you have gained by doing this on a daily basis, then a prior opinion is formed

but alas i would say only a handful of people in hear have seen an LTI, even less seen one working in real life enforcing enviroment

if you had then you would know how long it takes to form a prior opinion

without blowing my own trumpet i could tell you the speeds of passing vehicles to within 2mph, just by a quick glance

_________________
now retired

To be fair, I have heard this from another policeman , who I would trust 110 percent


as for noise.. again right on the money, Noise is perceived as speed , and the demand for speed cameras follow as night follows day.

Therefore the quiet 40mph jag pays the price for the noisy 1.2 litre 10 mph datsun with an exhaust the size of a cave

bugger..


rgds
bill

I should add..

yup the police actively ecnourage the residents to write in for consideration , thus making sure there are plenty of places to visit

as for the 85th percentile, that's being dumbed down, to an average.. which is a seriously retrograde and dangerous step, if u read this forum u will find explanations.
However sites for trapping speeding motorists can be at places that don't meet the relevent criteria. It seems, not only do they not tell us, but they don't tell you !!!!!

totally true on pedestrian perception of engine noise though, one thing i hated about an automatic when i first got it was that I couldn't use gears to make pedestrians think- with my old van when approaching a busy junction with "likely" pedestrians hanging off the pavement looking to play chicken I'd often chop it into first and they'd usually step back and check themselves.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I was going to post a retort but after writing it I realised the wall in front of me was more capable of handling the debate.