Safe Speed Forums

17:30ish dark A road (A251) twisty, few places to safely overtake. I was following a Ford Focus being driven basically OK, but slower than necessary (mainly 40-45mph where 45-60mph was safe), and speed was a little inconsistent, (varied from 35-50) regardless of whether this was neccessary for the road conditions. A short straight opens up, I choose not to overtake because there is a junction on the offside about halfway along.

But a Saxo does overtake me and then overtakes the Focus, by which time the Saxo is on the wrong side of the road on the entry to a bend. Luckily nothing was coming the other way...-would have been absolute carnage at that closing speed.

Glad that I had not witnessed a fatal accident before Xmas, I started wondering about where fault lay. Obviously the vast majority (probably all of it legally) of blame would lie with the Saxo driver, it was a really dangerous manouvre. But 2 things struck me

a- Driving at a speed which is slower than necessary must play a part in encouraging foolish risk taking/poor decision making re. overtakes.

b- By driving at the optimum safe speed (this would vary a bit between drivers admittedly) you can discourage some of the poor overtakes because most drivers in most cars realise that quick overtakes of vehicles travelling at 55-60 are more difficult than overtakes at 40 -and against the law for what its worth.

I'm not saying that the Focus was to blame for this incident. But if he/she had been driving at a safe, optimum (and legal) speed, the tosser in the Saxo may not have done what he did. Not everyone has this ability but doesn't this incident highlight that they should?

Discuss...

I always like to say: "What could I have done?" to minimise the danger and a few points come to mind:

1) If I'm continuously looking for an opportunity to overtake I'll be closer than usual and moving around to improve vision. The driver behind sees this behaviour and usually suspends overtaking. If he doesn't - and I notice him closer than usual too, that's my cue to let him overtake me first. I'll open a larger gap in front and let him past. This may help him not to go for the longer-than-advisable two car block overtake. It also helps to avoid the potential conflict if you both go for the overtake at the same time.

2) If I'm not continuously looking for an opportunity to overtake, and the chap behind is, I'll try and help him to pass me safely.

3) But let's say there's been little history either way to indicate who is trying to overtake who. I notice that the chap behind is starting to overtake me. I try to give him a sign that I'm giving way to his move. A little chink to the left and a little lift-off is usually enough. Sometimes a flash of the left indicator helps. This increases his options to decide to overtake just one car and helps to avoid the situation where he goes for the block and runs out of space. After this if 'things go wrong' we have PREDEFINED who is giving way to who and the horrible horrible situation where you both end up braking side-by-side is avoided.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That scenario happens to me quote a lot. Stuck behind unbeeeeeleeeeevably slow driver, braking for everything, bends, oncoming cars, puddles and couldn't hold a consistent speed if their life depended on it. WHY oh, why do the go out at night (especially) if they can't drive in the dark?
I usually try for a pass (staying close), but normally end up dropping back (admit defeat in the interests of safety) & enjoying the slow drive / dawdle. Inevitably somebody has overtaken everything in the queue except me & car in front. Then I drop well back to give enough space between us to allow for safer overtake of me. I honestly worry a little if they overtake on blind corners just to get past, dreading the time when I witness a head-on at high speed. I must say that having sat-nav reduces the amount of time 'stuck' just behind a numptie as you can 'see' ahead and know when a straight section is coming up and get your overtaking head on in anticipation! Indicate WELL in advance (these people rarely check rear view - from experience), drop to 3rd (sometimes 2nd) and wham! Done, home & free.

Of course liability lies with the saxo, that goes without saying. The slow driver could be held partly responsible at a moral level for facilitating the need to overtake, and you could do more by backing off and leaving a 'chicken gap' in front of you for the saxo to bail into if needed.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

I can assure you there was plenty of gap between me and the Focus for the Saxo to use... Plenty of braking distance to start with and even more gap when I backed off having seen the saxo commit to the overtake.

Hence the overwhelming nuttyness of its overtake on such a short straight.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. What the Saxo driver did sounds like a pretty irresponsible reaction to a frustrating situation, but if the Focus driver created the situation in the first place... I see this as being a bit like misusing a tool in the workplace. Say I was sawing up planks with a chainsaw that I didn't know how to use properly because a jig saw (or whatever would be the right sort of tool - I wouldn't really know) wasn't available. The employer would get a hammering for not providing me with the right tools and training even though any accident would be my fault.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

The driver in front could have been excercising sensible caution - driving within their limits. Surely this is a GOOD thing? I'm sure I've read something about safe driving not being measured in miles per hour somewhere around here, or does that only apply outside the posted legal limit?

They have no fault applied, legal or moral. The Saxo driver is at fault as they were the one making the manouver.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

That's a good point. No one should ever drive faster (or be expected to drive faster) than their own level of competence and comfort.

However, I do think there's a fair caveat, enshrined in the Highway Code, which advises slow vehicles to allow others to pass. A failure in this duty could possibly contribute to frustration and danger.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Although slow drivers can be irritating, I don't think it is reasonable to blame them for other people doing ill-judged overtakes. You must consider each overtake purely on its own merits and, if not clearly safe, don't proceed.

The rights and wrongs of the situation would have been no different had the slow vehicle been a van that was limited to 50 mph anyway on a SC road, and the driver was taking it a bit easy within that limit because the handling was a bit dodgy in slippery conditions.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Yes, but I don't think many people would consider this to extend to someone doing maybe 10 mph below the limit on a SC NSL A-road in the dark.

Also bear in mind a lot of drivers (including me) suffer from dazzle from oncoming headlamps and so on a busy but unlit road might well drive more slowly at night than they would in the daytime.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Handy, that's a fair point but then my argument would be that if the driver of the Focus was not capable of maintaining a reasonable pace (and I assume that the saxo driver wouldn't have been getting frustrated if he was travelling at reasonable pace) then they shouldn't be on the road. I'm not saying that I expect everyone do drive at 60mph everywhere regardless of the conditions, but seeing people 'comfort braking' and driving rediculously slow IMO is a mark of serious incompetance.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

Very poor driving on the part of the overtaker, not enough room for safety, other people having to make room for you, junction halfway along, dark, ice? wet?

Not fair on Focus driver, may've just past test, not used to driving in the dark, or just being careful because of the conditions may even have been lost and looking for a junction or something. There are more people doing strange journeys at this time of the year visiting relatives etc.

So often, (not in this case), the second car is too close to the first vehicle, forcing the overtaker to take both at once. I have even known people accelerate to close the gap as they see someone pull out to overtake.

Being second car always makes me feel as though I should overtake if I can do so safely because it makes it more than twice as dangerous for somebody else overtaking the two cars instead of one.

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

Obviously the vast majority (possibly all -I'm undecided hence the original post) of blame lies with the Saxo. But was the Focus entirely 'blameless'? There is a very fine line between applauding someone for their good sense for driving within their limits & competence, and applauding someone for their incompetence.

If the Focus driver was capable of driving at an increased but safe speed -but chose not to, have they nothing to answer for in this situation?

If they had been driving at 20-25 mph, that might well have been the case. But from your description it seems they were doing no more than driving a bit slower than you felt comfortable with. There's a rather large difference between the two. There's no law that says you have to drive at the speed limit if safe to do so.

One of the things we all too often lack is tolerance of other road users.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

My few pennies worth:

a) The Focus may have been driving at the limits of ability, may not really have been concentrating, may have been on the phone, who knows. But they were not an exceptionally slow vehicle, and I do not think that they can be criticised. Certainly not from a legal basis - unless they were on the phone.

b) The Saxo is accused of an ill-judged double overtake, and while I wasn't there, was it really that dangerous? To overtake at all it implies a good knowledge of the road, and it was dark, so perhaps they were using the additional information available to them such as headlight spill - while you cannot see around the corner, you can see light from the headlights of an oncoming vehicle, and that additional information would have told the Saxo whether it was safe to stay out and pass the second vehicle or not. The same applies to any vehicle coming out of the side road - perhaps the Saxo knew the road well enough and was good at reading the necessary signs, and so knew that this wasn't a high risk move?

It's a judgement thing. I agree with what you say, but I wouldn't want to 'put a number' to it.

On the other hand, perhaps the number of vehicles in any tail-back might be useful?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That's a good question to ask.

In the case of left hand bends, being 'out' can sometimes extend your vision way beyond expectation. And the converse can be true on right hand bends - vision can shorten very markedly.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'd say the blame lay with the saxo for a poorly judged overtake, although like said a driver being overtaken has a duty to allow people to pass and return to the carridgeway in a safe manner, although again the saxo driver should allow for other peoples ignorance or beligerance. If someone overtakes me dangerously I'll let them in if need be, evan though part of you begrudges it -they'll learn their lesson the hard way sooner or later, no need for me to play a cameo in the story of their downfall.

unfortunantly too many drivers do not see it this way and actually compete with an overtaking car that may be making a safe and well judged manuveur, which in my view comes under "racing on the highway" and should be punishable by death, as the overtaking vehicle will probably always been seen as the cause of any accident that may result in our "speed is the route of all evil" climate.

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

it's a good point about the slower vehicle allowing others to overtake - I don't think that is communicated particularly well to new drivers or repeated in 'Think!' type adverts.

There is a huge scope for safety messages to be communicated in that kind of advert, if there wasn't such an endemic problem with exceeding the speed limit then perhaps we would have road safety adverts about non-speeding issues?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

I would say the Saxo, but whoever set the speed limit too low in the first place ought to be partly to blame too. My brother absolutely refuses to break the speed limit (as it's the law) even if he can see a queue of traffic behind him. He knows that drivers behind will be getting frustrated and this frustration can lead to some drivers risking dodgy overtakes, but he will not exceed the posted limit.

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus