Safe Speed Forums

"Mobile fitter came out over the weekend to PMI my truck, and noticed i'd got a mobile phone holder and my Tomtom mount stuck to the screen.
He very kindly left me a note informing me that it is illegal to have anything stuck to the screen within the sweep of the wiper blades, and that he was aware of the ministry cracking down on such things...

I personally was not aware of any such regulation, but thinking about it i have noticed alot of drivers with portable tele's and laptops on the dash.
Surely vision is obstructed with such items in the screen and needs to be cracked down on.."

Thanks for that Sixy_the_red, the Times run an article in one of the supplements saying exactly the same thing just after Christmas, they did have someone from DfT making the point about the sweep of wiper blades.

Personally have found them to be great, have run a TomTom Mobile off a P910i smartphone for about a month and rather be using that, than juggling maps or finding somewhere safe to pull over to change pages and read said map, I can dim the display so it doesn't blind me and is nice and loud with plenty of warning before junctions.

IME a real stress reduction tool, makes my life easier.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I see route finding, particularly towards the end of a journey where it often becomes necessary to identify a street by name, possibly at night or in poor visibility, as probably the most serious common distraction to the driving task - far more so than mobile phones.

I don't often drive on unfamiliar roads but, when I do, I am very conscious that my attention to driving suffers and stress level increases. So although I see some risk of distraction in using satnav, the benefit of a navigation aid that allows a driver to watch the road and respond to oral directions, instead of reading a map or written directions and watching for road signs and street names, far outweighs the possible drawback.

I frequently observe vehicles whose drivers appear to be dawdling or acting indecisively, particularly at junctions (of all sorts). Some of this is no doubt poor driving technique, but is it not quite likely that a substantial part of it is simply due to uncertainty about which way to go?

Have followed a few people that just seem to be dithering, speed and position erratic, pull into petrol station and they are in front asking passers by, do you know where X is ??

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I use sat nav on my PDA for all long journeys, and any where I haven't been to my destiniation before. I even use it for my long commutes to the office (just under 100 miles each way). It is set into a cradle to the drivers right where it doesn obstruct either vision or access to the controls, but can easilly be seen when I need to look at it.

For the journeys I do frequently sat nav is useful for two reasons:
1) If the road is blocked/closed/unbearably slow then I can use it to quickly find a route around the problem, saving me hours of being stuck in traffic or getting lost down strange country lanes.
2) To alert me to known speed camera locations and warn me if I am going too fast for the speed camera. This doesn't require looking at the screen and it is just possible it reduces the number of times I look away from the road (if it doesn't tell me to slow down then I know I am under the speed limit and don't need to check the speedo as the yellow box on a pole draws near).


These 'unknown' journeys are where sat nav really benefits safety instead of making things more dangerous. When you compare a driver trying to read a map to a driver following satnav it is obvious which is safer. Reading a map and searching for the correct names/numbers on signs involves taking your attention away from the road which has got to be more dangerous than listening to a voice or glancing the display.

I've found the best place to run my PDA-based Sat Nav is in the bottom right-hand corner of the windscreen. Not much obstruction to vision if you put it there.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

I have just bought a Tom Tom 1 and have found that when going places for the first time it is invaluable.

It is extremely uselful in towns where it not only tells you the route but has a diagram which is just perfect when manoevering complicated junctions because it not only shows a birds eye view of the junction, but also your route through it. This only takes a glance and stops you being in the wrong lane and having to try and change half way around the junction butting into a lane which is being blocked by mr intolerant.

I have set mine to turn the screen off at 40mph also which negates the distraction on motorways or dc's.

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If you're right, did your heels in
If you're wrong, admit it!

Sink the scameraships
Give us back our Police Force

I actually position my PDA just below the middle air vents in my car, left of the dashboard. I like it there as this way it's not normally in my field of view at all so it presents no distraction and I can rely on the audio to give me directions most of the time. Since it's at the same height as the speedo when I do have to glance at the screen it's no different from a glance to my speedo.

But the fact is that many of the people using a GPS system would drive and read a map at the same time.

I used to do it, never had the time to stop. A-Z on the steering wheel held with one thumb.

And a map is easier to hide if plod comes along.

So on balance, a GPS might be slightly distracting but it's an improvement.

It would be nice to have some official "chapter and verse" on this because the last time it came up nobody could come up with anything.

I certainly remember some such law coming into act but I couldn't find it when I went looking.

Mine is usually dead bottom centre of the windscreen. It's well within the wiper sweep but anything obscured by it would be less than six feet from my bumper. This is also right above the speedometer so I can check both at the same time. And it's in reach of the passenger in case any adjustments are needed.

But I find I don't really need to watch it that much, a quick glance at the distance to turn and sometimes the manouver symbols are all that is required. The moving map / 3D display isn't that much use really and could be done away with.

Yup, I agree 100%. The moving map is just there to make it look good. It is quite odd that there is no option to just have the direction arrows and distance to turn appear.

Hi Paul,
Yes I have and I do see your point on that. The bit that worries me is the people who are still in the "new toy" stage or those few who never get over it. If they hit someone during that time, they still hit someone. I don't see why other road users should have to run any increased risk during the adaptation process.

But you have to weigh this short "new toy" period (say one week) with the far longer period when they have become safer and are no longer staring at maps and making last minute turns. As the "new toy" period is short and the increased safety period will last as long as they are driving you are looking at one slightly unsafer week against years of being slightly safer.

In any case, the same argument of it being unsafe during an adjustment period could be made against new drivers, new cars, people driving for the first time with their new baby in the car, etc.

EDIT:

I could argue that I don't see why I should have to put up with the increased risk of drivers who do not know where they are going. Such drivers present a serious danger as they may often suddenly stop or quickly change lane. Why do I have to put with drivers who DO NOT have a satnav system?

I have given over counting the times I have failed to arrive at my destination, because I dont have Sat Nav!

There were so many places I wanted to visit in France, and couldn't ask directions because I didn't understand the language, and had to turn around and drive back the way I had come!

Of course there have been small triumphs, like the time I was passing Sheffield on the M1, and decided to surprise a friend whose whereabouts was unknown to me except for an address. Of course I did cheat and ask a policeman for directions.
Just after, I managed to get a bevy of girls into my car who had just left a club, who directed me to within 1 street in return for a lift home! You couldn't get away with that with Sat Nav! (OK, I admit they WERE from Sheffield - but at least not Attercliffe!)

Anyone else feel it's simply technology for the sake of it?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

"Curmudgeon wrote:
If you need to read a map, you stop and read a map - to the poster who suggested that GPS was safer than reading a map while driving - I agree - but reading a map while driving is illegal!"


Homer: "But the fact is that many of the people using a GPS system would drive and read a map at the same time.

I used to do it, never had the time to stop. A-Z on the steering wheel held with one thumb.

And a map is easier to hide if plod comes along.

So on balance, a GPS might be slightly distracting but it's an improvement."

Also as I said in a previous post pulling over somewhere safe but soemtimes, especially London there isn't anywhere safe (virtually) and then getting back into traffic creates it's own hazards.

Homer am trying to find chapter and verse re 'wiper sweep', will update but this is the best I can find so far.

The Scottish Road Safety Campaign have a FAQ on their GetInLane website, aimed at car modifiers and new drivers:


Q. My car failed it's MOT because sun visor sticker encroached swept area. What is the swept area?

A. A windscreen sticker would fail the MOT if it encroached more than 10mm into Zone A. Zone A is the swept area of the windscreen, 290mm wide and centred on the centre of the steering wheel. Put simply this is the area of the windscreen at the drivers side. A sticker could encroach up to 40mm in the remainder of the screen.

Q: I have a GPS screen mounted on my dashboard. Will this cause a problem at the MOT test?

A: If when the vehicle is presented for a test the screen obscures the driver’s view of the road there may be a reason for failure subject to the specific criteria as laid down in the MOT Inspection Manual. If you are in doubt ask a tester to advise on the likely outcome prior to presenting the vehicle for test.

As for digital speedo's dying a rapid death, Citroen are bringing them back with the C4 and later on the C5 as has Renault on the Scenic.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I disagree entirely, on complicated junctions where the voice instructions can be unclear or ambiguous a swift glance at the display can clarify the situation. Furthermore it can be used as 'advanced warning' of the route of the road, allowing one to spot potential overtaking oppertunities, or helping to select the best line around a bend.

And again you have the option to do this when convenient to you and you can afford to divert a second or 2 of attention to it e.g. on the approach to a complicated junction, rather than try to fight your way into the right lane when you get there.

A work-colleague of mine had a simple satnav in a previous car which just showed the next change of direction and distance (along with voice prompts). He got caught out when he had to navigate off a roundabout and immediately take a right-turn, he basically missed the turn and because it was a reasonably fast A-road had to travel a couple of miles to get back. If there was a display he could have known and planned better.

The moving map can also be useful when planning an overtake to check if there are any junctions on the approaching straight rather than finding a hidden junction while already part-way through an overtake - I'm not suggesting you should treat the map as gospel (that if no roads are shown that there aren't any as some tracks, driveways will not be shown), it's just another tool to assist when making the decision.

The answer given by maverick808 at: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewt ... 3017#63017 is good, and well aligned with my thoughts.

I'd also add that drivers do have a substantial capacity for managing distraction. In every planned and managed situation we have a second or two 'in reserve'. This allows us to make instrument and mirror checks as required for example. See http://www.safespeed.org.uk/inattention.html

That's not supposed to suggest that we can get away with carelessly allowing ourselves to be distracted (we can't), nor is it supposed to suggest that frantic and repetitive speedo checks in the area of a speed camera are safe (I don't believe they are).

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

From my own personal experience, using my TomTom Go has made navigation easier and safer. And with the speed camera database I've added to the unit (updated monthly) my journeys are far less stressful, and I've been able to divert more of my attention to actually driving, rather than partially scanning for GATSOs and the like.

I actually enjoy poring over maps, and absorbing the geographical knowledge they bestow upon the reader. I also enjoy 'discovering' a place by using my map- and sign-reading skills. However, when actually having to drive to unfamilliar destinations in a timely fashion, relying solely on a amap can become very time-consuming and, in the case of navigating town centres and one-way systems, confusing, distracting and dangerous.

In this sense, using my satnav unit - as a supplementary guide - is superior to only reading a map, receiving imprecise directions from passers-by, and trying to spot and interperet potentially obscure signs in unfamilliar locations, whilst jostling for position with moving traffic. I've placed my unit in at the bottom-right of my windscreen, and find that the vocal instructions are delivered in plenty of time to prepare myself for the next change of direction. The graphics, when they are needed, are very easy to interperet at-a-glance. When I don't require its services, it being on does not distract me at all.

My model also uses Bluetooth to connect to my mobile, and becomes a very effective and completely hands-free device when (short) phone conversations must take place.

For me, this technology is similar to power steering or traction control - technology that should not take the place of attentive and skilled driving, but does make it easier and, in many instances, safer.

Greg
raadius.co.uk

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enjoy every mile

And I thought it was just me! Phew.

Overall I'd say Sat-Nav was generally safer then trying to read a map to get to an unfamiliar place. The way I work without Sat-Nav is to try and make a mental picture of what the turn will look like from the information on the map. "The road bends to the left and then second right" or "I'll pass a church on my right then it's the second right after that". I find this rarely lets me down. I can usually remember the route from the nearest mortorway junction or major intersection so that is rarely a problem in all but the most complex routes. However once I've made a commitment to make a turn I will always make it even if I think I might have made a mistake(as rare as that is...... )

Allow me to put the case for maps though. When I worked as a driver/rep around Leeds and also Manchester an A-Z was my bible. It didn't take me long to pick up the area and then I started getting adventurous and planning short-cuts and learning which roads to avoid and which were the quickest by having a look at a region wide route planner and also checking out the street view to see if I could cut a few corners off, or try some back roads etc.

All-in-all in meant I often had a choice of at least a couple of seperate routes and many more combinations within those. I could therefore make a snap decision to go another way for whatever reason(such as an accident, heavy traffic, roadworks etc). I would love to take part in one of those t.v races to see which is quicker to a random destination, I'm confident I would win!

If you got into a cab would you feel happier with a driver who set off straight away or one that put your destination into the sat-nav? Nothing will ever beat local knowledge, but you only get the best understanding of an area with maps I reckon.

Still, unless your concentrating on one specific region then Sat-Nav will be much better then trying to carry every A-Z around!

Totally agree. I'm planning my first ever drive through Europe (to Italy) in a few months and, although I'll be taking my satnav unit with me, there is absolutely no way I will leave home without a proper atlas (or two or three).

Atlases are beautiful representations of a road network, and give the reader a contextual reference for their medium- and long-range surroundings. Satnav cannot show you this (yet) and the thought of travelling through France and Italy without becoming even slightly familliar with the main road networks would be a travesty.

Besides, I'll need to find my way back somehow if the TomTom gets pinched!.

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enjoy every mile