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Madness in Doncaster...

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 13:54

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

A further point that hasn't really been brought out is that, while you can't really criticise people for trying to abide by limits, to drive in such a way that you're aiming to influence or control the behaviour of others violates one of the fundamental principles of safety.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

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teabelly

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 14:25

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795

It only takes one person to drive around on twisties at 59 mph and have many a wreck in their wake to show this hare brained scheme for what it is. Also the kind of numb nuts that would sign up for this pace car scheme are the kind that think the speed limit on an nsl road is 40 mph.

If speed limits were set sensibly I don't think there would be such a problem with the idea. Mind you, as someone that tends to be within the speed limit most of the time I am already performing this function

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diy

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 18:06

Member

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 19:19
Posts: 1050

Paul, I think the PR could point out that what they are asking is against the law

They are asking people to deliberately block the progress of other drivers

It is an offence to deliberately inconvenience other drivers. And if the pace car took it a stage further (blocking overtakes etc) they might also be guilty of dangerous or careless driving.

If I experienced one I'd definately report them to the police. This is extremely dangerous behaviour - particularly as the type of person who is likely to sign up - will probably crawl along at 20-25mph for extra 'safety'.

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diy

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 18:16

Member

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 19:19
Posts: 1050

Just emailed:

Dear sirs,

I read with interest your somewhat ill thought out scheme to slow traffic and wondered if you were aware that the language you use to encourage drivers to form a rolling road block is actually encouraging them to break the law?

By deliberately driving well below the speed limit in order to force others to follow - you are guilty of inconsiderate driving.

It is an offence to deliberately inconvenience other road users not to mention extremely dangerous.

Are you aware that it actually increase the risk of an accident? Inappropriate speed can be driving too slowly as well as too fast.

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antera309

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 19:36

Member

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 01:42
Posts: 686

Quote:

What do I have to do?

All you have to do is obey the law and make a commitment to drive at or below the speed limit for the road you are driving on.

Nothing about being a careful and considerate driver, then. You can pull out in front of people at junctions, turn right at roundabouts without indicating, sit too far over to the left when waiting to turn right, dawdle on entry slips and exercise no lane discipline whatsoever, secure in the knowledge that, as long as you don't exceed any speed limits, you will be respected as a beacon of safe driving.

What a crock.

_________________
“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

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SafeSpeed

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:01

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed

This just in from:

Peter C. Oliver
Senior Road Safety Officer
Road Safety Education Unit

road safety education unit wrote:

Community Pace Car Scheme

There appears to be some misunderstanding regarding the Community Pace Car Scheme. Firstly, it is not a new scheme, it was launched in May 2004. Secondly it is not unique to Doncaster, a number of other local authorities also have similar schemes, in fact the scheme originated in a unitary authority in what was previously known as Humberside.

All the Pace Car members are required to do is to drive at a speed which does not break the speed limit, something which each and every one of us should be doing anyway. All they are agreeing to do is not to break the law. Therefore if they are driving at the speed limit they are not holding anyone up unless those drivers are intending to break the law or perhaps have no respect for the law.

I fully agree with the principle of appropriate speed for environment and conditions etc: however, the appropriate speed can never be above the legal speed limit, otherwise we are condoning a breakdown of law and order. There are occasions when speed limits may be perceived to be too low and it is up to all of us to work within the law to effect changes in these cases.

There is another issue in relation to appropriate speed and that is in the current society there are a great many drivers who have no concept of what safe or appropriate speed actually is. The young are bombarded and fed by a speed culture which does nothing to encourage safe driving, acceptance of responsibility and respect for vulnerable road users such as pedestrians and cyclists.

Since our scheme was launched we have gradually recruited members, there has been no reported incidents of road rage and no accidents as a result of the scheme.

I appreciate that this is not the be all and end all of road safety, it is one of many measures which are used in the fight to reduce the unacceptable number of casualties on our roads.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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SafeSpeed

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:18

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed

I replied as follows:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Community Pace Car Scheme
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:16:42 +0000
From: Paul Smith <psmith@safespeed.org.uk>
Organization: Safe Speed
To: "Oliver, Peter" <Public.Safety@doncaster.gov.uk>

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your reply.

I note that you appear to confuse safe behaviour and legal behaviour. There's
a great deal of safe but illegal behaviour out there as well as legal but
unsafe behaviour. Road safety must exist in the real world, not in a
world-as-we-think-it-should-be.

If we are going to make our roads safer it is essential that we concentrate
resources on unsafe behaviours. Your scheme, and many official messages, tends
to replace established safe behaviours with behaviours that are merely legal.

This is not in the interests of genuine road safety and has to stop. I
recommend you withdraw your scheme.

--
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
Safe Speed

web: http://www.safespeed.org.uk
---------------------------------
promoting intelligent road safety

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:22

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

As said before "the mind boggles" with this PC nonsense - and as said before - how long before a serious road rage incident .Just hope the police will be investigated as the main cause of perpetration of this nonsense.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

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Sixy_the_red

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:22

User

Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:22
Posts: 2618

road safety education unit wrote:

I fully agree with the principle of appropriate speed for environment and conditions etc: however, the appropriate speed can never be above the legal speed limit, otherwise we are condoning a breakdown of law and order.

So because I exceed the legal speed limit I'm going to become a murdering thieving crack whore? This is the kind of idiotic non-thinking that we need to be working to stamp out.

_________________
Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

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diy

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:48

Member

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 19:19
Posts: 1050

SafeSpeed wrote:

This just in from:

Peter C. Oliver
Senior Road Safety Officer
Road Safety Education Unit

road safety education unit wrote:

...misguided crap...

I got the same response.

they couldn't even be bothered to copy it into an email, just attached it in a word doc.

I shall be checking thier site for accessibility compliance shortly

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diy

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 14:50

Member

Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 19:19
Posts: 1050

Paul how about a page (On the main site not the forum) on the dangers of driving too slowly.

I can draft if you don't have time?

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SafeSpeed

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 15:14

Site Admin

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed

diy wrote:

Paul how about a page (On the main site not the forum) on the dangers of driving too slowly.

I can draft if you don't have time?

Sounds GREAT! Please do. Bear in mind that it is sensitive in as much as we need to avoid:

a) being seen to promote 'speed'
b) suggesting that folk should drive beyond their skills or observations

And people may DELIBERATLY seek to misinterpret it.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 16:57

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

quote="road safety education unit"]I fully agree with the principle of appropriate speed for environment and conditions etc: however, the appropriate speed can never be above the legal speed limit, otherwise we are condoning a breakdown of law and order. [/quote]

Funny enough the idea of breaking the speed limit does not seem to apply to police vehicles going from A - B , or all they all on emergency calls but don't want to use lights etc? :lol:

Now wonder what will happen when a police vehicle gets stuck behind one of these pace vehicles??

An the idea of vehicles slowing down traffic is not new - the buses have done it for years

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

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Cooperman

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 17:33

User

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:33
Posts: 770
Location: Earith, Cambs

A Mr. Oliver replied to my email with all the usual 'spin'. Here is my reply to him:

Thank you for your prompt reply.
Having now had the opportunity to read and digest to details of the scheme I still find it incredible that members of the public are to be encouraged to deliberately 'baulk' other drivers who are going about their business. There seems to be nothing in the scheme to determine that the 'pace cars' will be driven at the fastest legal speed, but to drive at less will simply obstruct those driving legally and making 'best progress'. Who are these pace car drivers that they can be the arbiters of the safest speed in all circumstances.
In town I virtually always drive at or below the speed limit, adjusting my speed to what I consider safe. I suspect my experience over the past 47 years exceeds the majority of your pace car drivers and that my safety record is better than the vast majority. However, I would never willingly impede any other driver who wanted to drive faster than me and would consider that to try to impose my standards on others would indeed be very foolhardy, not to mention inconsiderate and bad-mannered. But then, maybe I come from a better-mannered era as I was born in 1940 and am now an OAP.
Road safety will not be addressed by silly schemes such as this and whilst we all deplore the casualty figures on our roads, and everywhere else where accidents occur, more straightforward and logical thinking is needed, not hare-brained ideas such as this.
Is it suggested that if a faster vehicle comes up behind a 'pace car' then that pace car shall deliberately obstruct the faster vehicle? If not, what is the purpose of the scheme. It may be that the faster vehicle is still within the speed limit whilst the 'pace car', without a calibrated speedometer, is driving well below the limit.
For the life of me I cannot see what you hope to achieve by this. I can just say that I sincerely hope one of these 'holier-than-thou' do-gooders does not impede a journey I may be making.
I just wish some real effort was being put into road safety to address not the 5% of accidents caused by drivers exceeding the speed limit, but the 95% of accidents caused by other factors.
The overall perception in respect of the blind and total observance of speed limits is so wrong in terms of accident prevention as to be bizarre.

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Ziltro

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 18:37

Member

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 02:50
Posts: 2868
Location: Dorset

botach wrote:

An the idea of vehicles slowing down traffic is not new - the buses have done it for years

Not always, there was a time I was behind a bus doing ~35 in a 30 limit with a DSCP advert on the back. Oh how I laughed.

If I saw a "pace car" I would want to overtake it just because it is annoying in principal.

_________________
Andrew.

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PeterE

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 18:40

Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6737
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

diy wrote:

Paul how about a page (On the main site not the forum) on the dangers of driving too slowly.

There is always the well-known piece by Paul Ripley, which I have taken the liberty of preserving on my website at:

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/art_slowdrive.html

It's important that any piece raises objection not to adhering to the speed limit as such, but doing so with the deliberate intention of obstructing or baulking others - you don't want to be seen to be encouraging people to break the law

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botach

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 19:31

Gold Member

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 23:26
Posts: 9268
Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK

Would make an interesting study - near misses etc on NSL roads due to drivers at speeds substantialy below the limit, and baulking (either by tailgaiting etc) those who wish to pass - in theory in a climate of good safe driving this should be zero - but this is camera mad Britain, where the speed limit is king, and "slower is safer" :mrgreen:

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

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supertramp

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 21:13

Member

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 01:48
Posts: 526
Location: Netherlands

SafeSpeed wrote:

Top notch, very impressive :thumbsup:

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mpaton2004

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 23:52

User

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 21:19
Posts: 1059

I sent this in response to the similar reply everyone else has receieved. I definitely think they must have drafted up a generic response due to an overwhelming barrage of negative comments.

Peter,

Your reply alarms me.

Firstly you are giving the impression to drivers that it is OK to drive at the speed limit regardless. I can drive at 20mph in a 30 zone and it could be lethal. Similarly I can drive at 120 on a straight empty motorway and it could be safe. Legality has absolutely nothing to do with safety.

It is possible to drive perfectly safely without a speedometer in the car. In fact I would argue it is safer as I don't need to look down at the dashboard at all and I can keep full concentration on the road ahead. Unfortunately in this world of inappropriate speed limits, GATSOs, mobile vans, my attention has to be diverted at regular intervals to ensure strict legal compliance.

Ask yourself this, would it be acceptable for someone to drive with their eyes closed at 20mph? Of course the answer would be no, but this is almost the message we are delivering to people by focusing every single aspect of road safety on speed limit adherance. By doing this we are making the roads more dangerous. I look on camera partnership websites and see about 15-20 pages dedicated to "how lethal it is to drive at 35", but then one page on drink driving.

It makes me angry that the authorities after almost 15 years of this obsessive policy with the assosciated reversal of road death trends - still choose to output this same drivel.

There needs to be a balance, and at the moment we are miles and miles away from it.

Regards,
Martin

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Cooperman

Post subject:

Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 13:44

User

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:33
Posts: 770
Location: Earith, Cambs

I just looked at my insurance certificate and the specific exclusions are for:

"Speed testing, pace making, rallying, commercial travelling and use in connection with the motor trade".

Is is hard to see how someone with a sticker in the rear window proclaiming them to be a Community Pace Car can be legally insured as they are not only 'Pace Making', but admitting it publicly.
The Doncaster Council are also 'Aiding & Abetting' them in this illegal activity.
If (when) an accident happens and the insurers, who will always try to find a way of not paying if they can, decline to pay, the driver and the Doncaster Council could be jointly and severally liable for the claim and the costs. Will this money come from public funds. The driver will also face points and a fine, possibly disqualification, and an increased premium at next renewal.
It certainly does seem as though this has not been properly thought out (as usual). What would the media make of this factor in the situation.
Do you feel a Press Release coming on, Paul?

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