Safe Speed Forums

Coming out of Kendal today, and approaching Plumgarths Roundabout where the A591 by-passes Kendal, and at the point where the Crook Road and Kendal Road meet.
It's an odd roundabout in that traffic ON the roundabout actually gives way to the A591 from Windermere, instead of the other way round!!

A cyclist was approaching the roundabout from Kendal - road end is two lanes - one for travelling onto the roundabout, and another for scooting left straight on to the by-pass.
He signalled as I was some way back that he intended to pull over to the right.
Now the traffic FROM the right, which is missing the junction for Kendal, and taking the bypass exit, is quite ferocious at times (remember, they have not had to pause to give way to the right) so I presumed he intended to dart to the centre - which proved correct.
Obviously he then had to be taking either the Crook turning, or the Windermere line, and would want to cross from the centre back to the nearside - a perilous manouvre, because the "roundabout" is a long lozenge, and traffic off the bypass is coming off a half mile hill, and is often "travelling".
So, I decided to allow him to cross in front of me - hanging back to encourage this, and covered his manouvre by placing my vehicle behind him.
I noticed in my mirror, a car come down the hill, sweep straight on to the roundabout, and since I was in the middle of the wide lane assumed he would have to pause. not a bit! He attempted to pass me - first on the inside - where he would have been surprised to find the cyclist no doubt, so I flicked my left indicator - at which point he swung behind and attempted to pass on the right side - which in theory meant he would turn right into Kendal! Of course as he squeezed past, and drew level, I held my position to discourage him from darting in front of me, and striking the cyclist.
He did get past, but at a speed which gave him time to avoid the rider.
He passed far too close - even for the reduced speed I had enforced upon him.

My question is should we leave cyclists to their own devices, or should we use our knowledge to intervene? My cyclist was making quick progress, was positioning sensibly, but my good intentions were nearly thwarted by arrogance and lack of observation.

The cyclist SHOULD have been visible to the car as it came down the hill - but I suspect the driver was watching for traffic from the right, in order to time his headlong launch onto the junction without slowing, so I am not sure whether I did right or not.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Definitely intervene.

Going about on the roads at a much slower speed gives you a very different perspective of traffic, the road conditions, drivers' intentions and their attention.

I did something similar to what you did on one of the A9 roundabouts in Inverness. I knew the exit towards Nairn was uphill, so he would be slowing as he exited the roundabout, so I held up the following traffic in both lanes until he had cleared.

No doubt that was an offence on my part, but I know it can be pretty shitty trying to get clear of a risky area whilst going uphill...

Oh god. This is difficult. Interventions can be life-saving and they can be deadly. If you ever plan to intervene then EXTREME caution is required.

Read Ernest's description of the behaviour of the other driver. It's a tragedy in the making.

If anyone wants a rule, I'd say it was NEVER intervene. Other people's safety is their own responsibility and (equally) your primary duty is to yourself.

One of the biggest problems with interventions is that they are likely to be unexpected. When people encounter the unexpected they are unpredictable. That's how danger arises. If this danger is less than the pre existing danger then your intervention was successful. If it's greater you might have blood on your hands.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Sadly drifting lanes on a roundabout is pretty much expected behaviour nowadays. I wouldn't have done it if I wasn't fully aware of what was going on around me.

Besides, at roundabout speeds it would have been the skin of the cars, rather than the blood of the cyclist.

Nah. I don't accept that argument. The consequences of crashes is very unpredictable. If someone tried to drive around you (as did Earnst's chap) he might have made it and caused a bigger crash. Or pushed you into the cyclist. Or anything.

I can't say 'don't' because sometimes you might be able to save a life. But I stand by extreme caution.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

btw



I know that roundabout very well. It's about 36 miles from here. It was extensively re-engineered about 3 years ago, and the Nairn road is now a dual carriageway.

Do I take it that your cyclist was travelling south past the the A96 turnoff? And you were concerned about A96 traffic?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'd say we make "better" drivers from cyclist point of view because we "understand from the rider's perspective" and know why they have adopted a primary position - per the cyclist in Ern's experience above.


Also Ern's local and cyclist is also perhaps local as well.... our numpty may well have rep man or tourist!

As Ern says - cyclist should have been visible - but this one was probably looking at traffic on roundabout to the right instead of the bigger COAST-led approach...


Note - gotta get me COAST plugs Just another example as to why training and nagging at this appears better advice than just saying speed kills and whacking up a camera...

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I realise that the CYCLIST might misunderstand an attempt at intervention, and react accordingly - so I always leave an option to bale out and leave them to their own devices - but in this instance the other drivers aggressive behaviour may well have led to a sudden surge to pass me, and left the cyclist vulnerable. He also seemed to comprehend what my intention was, having looked over his shoulder twice.

It is not often I contemplate stopping a driver, but this one annoyed me with the determination he displayed to progress WITHOUT looking ahead.

Ususally my cooperation is limited to leaving more room, slowing down in ggod time, and indicating I intend to pass to traffic behind - hoping they follow the example - and many do!
At the weekend, I had to negotiate a road on our estate where parking limits the width available to one lane. A cyclist was coming the other way, and I was able to stop in a small gap and wait for him to pass by. From the incredulous look on his face, I would say this cooperation was all too rare!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

you're right it's rare. A big smile and a wave always goes to anyone that considerate. "Might is right" rules around here. Foot to the floor and screw the consequences, but that's ok because they're not 'speeding'.
Some do think twice if you wobble a bit though. I suppose they suddenly worry about their poor car getting scratched.

As for 'helpful' motorists I find that most who try to be helpful are doing the exact opposite. For example, I was waiting to pull out of an T-intersection. Looked left, one car coming, indicator on, figured I'd could pull out behind it. Looked right, cars coming but will still be clear by the time the car on the left comes past. errr, it's taking a while, what's happened?? Look left again. The idiot has STOPPED and is flashing me to come out. I shake my head and wave them on. They flash again. By this time it's too late to pull out and so I end up waiting for another minute. Thanks for that.
I see this all to often - motorists with nobody behind them stopping to let someone turn past them. WHY?

In reply to Ernest's question I wouldn't like to give an unequivocal "yes" but you are far more likely be cautious and courteous towards cyclists on the basis that you would like be treated the same way when on the bike yourself.

In the situation he described if I thought that the actions of the other driver indicated that he hadn't seen the cyclist then I would probably have tried, in a safe way, to draw his attention to the presence of the cyclist too.