Safe Speed Forums

Additionally Brustrom has put his name on a 194 page document - http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/ ... x04x04.pdf - which I am about to skim-read.

I'd already read that the 9am incident was on the same road but THE SAME CORNER! If that's the case then the police that attended have quite a lot of explaining to do.

The boundary game Ernest alludes to is a problem round here too. There is one road that I travel to work on that is regularly gritted for the first half, givingpeople a false sense of security for the ungritted second half. that happens regularly and regular travellers of this streetch now expect it.

Section 3.1.2 in Brunstrom's manual is interesting...

... as is section 5.3 throughout.

On a road like this one - would appear normal. I would bet the handling did not give too much indication of all this. As Ern points out:



Rain would have washed away the grit. I artempted to clean all our cars last Sunday on my own land. I had gritted our driveway the night before - but the rain washed it away. I abandoned cleaning and vacuuming these vehicles because I found that I could not keep upright as the rain had caused some block ice. I was not driving - on foot and could not see it until I landed on my bottom!



Bingo! My driveway at this point! Has a slight camber and I think my grit washed away.




Exactly. I think people forget that the police are expert drivers and most of those employed in RTC invetigations have degrees in Maths and Physics.

Regardless of strong feelings - I consider these people to be experts in their field - and we do not need an academic journal to tell us this is so.

I think I'm more inclined to trust a policeman than some armchair " opinionated academic"



Indeed - people spout and they were not there.



Exactly Ern - and echoes what I posted earlier.

There is a tendency for some cyclists to condemn the driver first and no listen to another point of view.

Nothing is black and white. As pointed out previously - the ppor chap was very unlucky to meet the patch of black ice. By some quirk of fate the cyclists happened along just as he hit the ice - with all too tragic circumstances. The cyclists probably did not feel the ice either we cannot then attach any blame to any victim of this - and driver/cyclist - they are all innocent victims in this one.

However, in any group activity - HSE requires a risk assessment - and perhaps something will be tightened up as a result. (Snide aside ... CM Subjective as we missed First Act of a play because of this grrrr!). Also a lot of attention will focus on previous incidents that day and gritting of this road.

But regardless of who did whatever - we lost one 14 year old's promise and some worthwhile lives - and until we know the outcome of any investigation - we cannot blame and I do not think "trial and retribution" will resolve in this case. Learning how to avoid in the future will mean those people did not die in vain - and their memory will live on as a result .

_________________
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They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
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KEEP SMILING
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Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

Perhaps I can commend you to the highwaysmaintenance.comnewsletter 2003, which sugests reasons why a road surface which has been gritted is still icy.
In addition, it suggests that one surface dressing will reduce spray and standing water, an ideal property for a bend/junction, but which is porous, and allows salt to drop into hollows, where it fails to be spread by the passage of wheels over the surface!

THISlink will take you to a discussion on the various properties of road coatings, including a dissection of SMA!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I've had a couple of thoughts...

There is a line in the road where the surface changes, does this correspond to the county/authority boundry mentioned before? If so it could be that both sides of the line were gritted by different authorities but neither gritted right up to the line to avoid going over it, which would cause an area with less grit on than the rest of the road. I rather doubt it really but it is something to think about for other areas.

Also, given the number of incidents of vehicles losing control earlier how can anyone know that any tyre marks/tracks belonged to the car in question and not one of the others?

_________________
Andrew.

No, the boundary is a little way away.
I seem to recall from an aerial picture that the bend/junction is finished in a different finish of tarmac to the road on either side.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have seen a dual carriageway gritted up to the border sign and abruptly stop (both sides). The gritter had] to have continued across the boundary and back.

I am pleased - nay delighted to report - that Cycling Weekly is back to its normal common sense self.

Robert Garbutt - editor and his editorials are usually full of good sense - (last week apart when he was writing no doubt from shock when he wrote



Well - horses are very large and very visible. A cyclist is on a narrow bike - and when we hear cars approaching - we should make ourselves seem a visible as we can manage . This means moving to a primary position to get oneself SEEN and to extend the backward glance that little more by just gently and very brieflly extending the torso to get a more direct look and even ey contact witht he approaching driver.

Of course, lights and appropriate choice of gear all help towards helping us help ourselves.

This week our editor comments on the articles in the paper - bet he read the "MEN" and maybe Ted's piece on this site . He has apparently had the



question. And he rightly comments that this is a knee jerk reaction.

. (I'd say on a par with the emotional outbursts we associate with the aftermath of the late Princess of Wales and the "heart on sleeve" stereoptypical urban myth of Liverpuddlian grief for its city's sons and daughters.)

Four deaths due to black ice and cycling becomes "zizagging on a challenging hill with the grim reaper for a cycling buddy" Of course it is unaccaptable for one cyclist to die on the roads. It is equally unacceptable for anyone - whatever they travel in or walking across a road to die there. I do not hold with this view that "cycling deaths alone are a capital offence" - all deaths are a tragedy and the tragedy and trauma applies just as much to the person who made the fatal error as it does the the bereaved and injured.

Any policeman who has investigated these tragedies will tell you that the sheer horror, terror and deep shock in the face of the person whose mistake caused the incident is just as severe as the deep hurt we see when we have to gently break the appalling news to the families involved - both sides!


Um - we do try to prevent all this as far as we can - you know!

Mr Garbutt writes that 130 plus as an annual toll within the 3500 (remained static overall and proves a single focussed approach is not quite the right way to tackle a problem) is



He goes on to report that 70 people die in domestic accidents each week and 800 die when missing a footing on stair each year; that 70 die when tackling a DIY job and another 50 falling off ladders (and these are the Ks - the SIs are much more frightening.



A very sensible editorial piece and a welcome change from the over-emotional comments seen in other magazines and features.

Interestingly, Mr Garbutt here is stating the views as posted by normal drivers and persons on motoring and general interest sites where this tragedy has been debated.

Human beings are always going to make fatal and tragic mistakes - and all we can do is educate to minimise them all as best we can.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

This week's CW reported on the 100 strong ride in memory of these cyclists. We were also out on our bikes and admit we paused for thought at roughly the time of this incident out of respect.

However CW publishes in full the account of one survivor.



From pacing one lad in the group - Mel Royles found himself, trying to keep calm, and trying to care for the injured.

Significantly he says



Royles made the driver comfortable and says



Exactly. Mel Royles and all of the riders at the Rhyl CC will suffer the "what if and if only" hell for the rest of their lives - and so do those who are unfortunate to cause these incidents by stupid error, or simple, but traumatic type freak accident which - God help them - they could not avoid - and I speak from personal as well as professional here - no more easy to come to terms with than the one caused by error or car thief. You do think - each birthday, Christmas, family event - "what would he be saying if he was here?"

Perhaps some people should reflect on this rather than spout off on one of blaming all involved.

Oh - and "Cycling Weekly" deserves a pat on the back for balanced, thoughtful and sympathetic reporting of this tragedy.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

The readers reaction letter page in CW. Naturally the magfazine published a balance of reactions ranging from the sensible to the plain daft.

Philip Hull pays a very poignant tribute to his firend, Maurice Boradbent - and describes how they forwent the ride on Honister Pass in favour of chatting up two local lasses and walking it instead! And paid tribute to his skills in cyclo-cross and training cyclists.

Others give their sincerest condolences - genuinely and without blame.

And we have some others.... (sigh...)

One lady is very subjective. It seems a friend of her husband was killed and was an ex-cleint of hers. (She is a lady who works for Bikeline Cyclinhg accident Claims.)

She writes that the driver was approaching a bend on an icy road.

Nope - trhe road was not icy - but that patch was prone to dudden macro climate effects which meant that the rain washed away the grit and froze to a sheet of black ice at this poiint. Furthermore - this is a gentle bend on a 60 mph road - so the driver had slowed to modified approach. My colleagues in North Wales do know this road as experts in their field when all is said and done.

The lady goes on to speculate that he "must have cleared the ice off his car that morning."

How does she know? One of my cars is housed in the garage and the other under a carport lean to. My next door neigbour keeps his in the driveway and despite the chill factor a lot further North - no film of ice. This was a macro climate at this point. Codntions were reportedly "normal" on the approach.

She says



Well - one could say this also applies just as much to the cyclists, horseriders and walkers.

As for the "non cyulging media ing much of the earlier accidents and the description as a blackspot suggesting to her that "all drivers drive too fast there" -

Well :scratcchin: I doubt very much Rhyl CC are in the habit of taking rides to known "blackspots" - and the patch is prone to macro -climates of intense cold. The earlier accident should have led to temporary triangles advising caution until the re-grit.



Anotehr also passes teh same comment and considers the press are "anti-cycling" and says that the press report refreed to the riders as "



Well I do not know which paper he read this in - but I did read all the broadsheet and tabloid accounts, plus my local paper's take and the Mad Cats posted up the "Manchester Evening"'s take - and I have not seen any such reference - not even in the Readers' letters.



We have a hard hitting campaign

They are called Road Safety Partnerships

- some of them offer training to those who err and we also offer DIS courses to re-educate - plus a lot of work shops within schools and other insitutions.

We have a driving test which all drivers and bikers have to satisfy. We have an insurance premium scheme which penalises drivers who cause accidents - and they have to declare for 5 years and 11 years in the case of more serious offences.

Unlike most areas - North Yorks and Co Durham have policemen on patrol to catch the lunatics.

Responsibility lies with all road users - and each one has a repsonsibility to ride and drive applying the Highway Code and the principles behind COAST.

Chap from Brighton Mitre CC takes issue with Mr Garbutt's crack at drivers noticing horses before cyclists and rightly points out that horses are bigger and cause more damage if spooked. He points out that part of the problme is that far too many have no knowledge of cycling - something which we have tried to put right on this site in the "Cycling" Forum.

Some less experienced drivers do not see why we adopt a primary position in some situations and some even perceive this as



Another comments that he rides regualrly but will not ride if icy or snowy because this makes conditions hard for all road users - and why add to a bad situation? He wonders why they did not abandon the ride if conditions were so icy.

Another refers to letters in the "Times" being hostile. Nope - not hostile but valid points of view. This chap refers to the 3500 deaths pa on the roads as well. I would remind him that a single focus policy does not make for better driving standards - a comprehensive enfporcement curbing all bad behaviour - and this means intelligent policing strategies does help reduce the number of incidents. we cannot zeroise - human beings are sadly developing the "stupidity gene" instead of evolving out of it.

Yes - I 100% agree with one comment regarding the footballers and the naff and unskilled who are as thick as their over inflated egos and way overpaid wages driving vehicles capable of 200 mph. Sadly - these also tend to drink, drug and drive as well and hire some overpriced slick oily lawyer to undermine our work and get them oiff on some "technicality and loophole in the Statute Law"

Yes - even agree with "tougher sentencing for these lunatics" We signed the petitions launched by the Day and Saunders families calling for this very thing.

But speed limiters and reduced speed limits.... sigh... they do not stop the accidents. Improving driver/biker/cyclist/pedestrian road sense and skills - now there's a novel thought!

So - on balance a good selection - and most seem balanced in outlook on this tragedy - and we know they have to publish the more negative reaction to provide a balance in points of view.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Maybe cyclists should crap on the bonnets of cars which get too close behind them!
It brings home the point that drivers regard horses as uncontrolled animals, liable to unanticipated actions, yet dont allow for the same in children, pedestrians, cyclists, and even other drivers!

Has anyone invited the man at CW over here for a view of our discussions, and some input?
He seems to be a reasonable chap, and it can only be ggod for all concerned.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Have been prompted to initiate a discussion on micro climates given the two page spread of daftness in this week's (4 Feb) CW "Letters" page in which all contributors go on at some length claiming the "driver was speeding"

The road was 60 mph and he was 10 mph below the speed limit. Up until the patch of black ice ... all reports to date indicate that the road was safe and without slide or sheen. As one lady mentioned in the Jan 21 batch ...



Well .. that also applies to the cyling club as D Edwards in the same batch pointed out .... and is slated for saying this in a rant on this page. This is not at all blaming the cyclists - but simply pointing out that the weather conditions applied to all equally and it it it was not safe to drive .. then it could not have been safe to cycle by the same argument.

It is not "anti-cycling" or blaming anyone to point this out - and the inquests and investigations will certainly look at each unpalatable argument to arrive at the truth.

Other contributors in both sets of letters seem to take issue with the press and Mr Edwards mentioning the duties of a cycling club in its activities.

Well... :scratcchin: all events which involve the public are required to do a risk assessment for insurance and HSE requirements - by civil and EU directive laws...(in our statutes by way of EU treaties...) This is really why we are now having to clamp down a bit on CMs...if those organising give us an itinerary so that we can keep traffic flowing and serve and protect our public as well as enforce laws with reason...- we are fine about a bike ride through town.

Much appears to be a rant over driver attitudes towards cyclists...accusing motorists of aggressive horn use, shaking fists and mobile phones at them and being generally "intimidating"

Er... not had this occur to me personally when out riding my bike ...nor has anyone around here reported this kind of road rage and bullying.

So ... as I know cyclists post to this site and a lot more lurk (and we'd welcome their input - especially to our Cycling Forum) - perhaps you could do the folllowing if you are a victim of this aggressive and anti-social and criminal behaviour

1. Try to get the reg numbers

2. Report it your local police. We really do need to know about this - and even if you do not get the reg numbers ... very likely the person travels on the road in question regularly and we can patrol to try to cop 'em at it. Believe it or not - we are prepared to help - you pay us to do so in any case.


3. Please remember that the driver involved in this terrible tragedy is as much in shock and trauma as the bereaved. And as much a victim.


An accident had occurred there earlier on and black ice was identified. It should have been gritted and North Wales police should have kept a watchful eye until the gritters arrived. He did not "lose control because he was speeding" - He lost control in all probability per the emerging factors because of a microclimate which he would have encountered the same problem at 30 mph and those people may still have been killed from the impact just the same. The survivors also say they found the road surface to be a sheet of ice as well.

I have thus opened up a thread on microclimates and mentioned the inital things to look for. There are others and I think it should be for people to input what they consider to be causes so that we can all be aware and at least have a little more idea as to what to look for when applying our COAST principles.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

For example:

Police Officer: "You shouldn't be parked here on this blind bend sir"
Stupid driver: "Why not? There's no yellow lines!"

That's what we're likely to find these days. In my earlier days of driving we had a good deal less of that sort of mentality.

IMHO this is the result of too much regulation effectively discouraging people from thinking sensibly for themselves. This policy is counterproductive and we need to get away from it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

that's because you're in a nice rural part of the country where there's no traffic. Try riding in a big city.



yeah, like that works...

"what do you want us to do?"
"well, you could just have a friendly chat to him to let him know that running cyclists off the road isn't very nice."
"that would be infringing his civil liberties"
"what, you mean me getting killed isn't an invasion of mine?"
"sorry sir but if you want us to do anything you'll have to fill in these forms"

so you fill the bloody forms in for the 100th time and then a month later you get a letter back saying

"were not doing anything because there's no proof so bugger off. When you get killed we might find the time to investigate."

Johnsher,
You are right that in rural areas we miss out on some aspects of riding and driving behaviour!
I am sorry you dont get the cooperation of your local police.
A few years ago, I reported a driver who passed me in a suicidal fashion, and was impressed that not only did they follow it up, but with only mine and my wifes testimoney, were prepared to take it to court.
It got thrown out on a technicality regarding the serving of the NIP, but at least there we were facing the prat in court, and his cards were well and trully marked!!

I suggest you adopt a calm and coinciliatory manner (it doesn't help to seem wound up) and tackle the local press, your MP and the police standards officer about the responses you have had.
CC each letter so that they know the others are in the loop, which discourages any of them from attempting to simply sweep it under the carpet. Keep up the pressure and see it through.

Remember:
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy, nice doggy" ....until you can pick up a big enough rock or stick!!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

well I've also forwarded all the details to Jenny Jones who was going to harass all the appropriate people and, unsurprisingly, never heard anything back from her either.
Even when there has been damage done (to both me and the bike) it's still not chased up. The last post-accident letter I got from the police was along the lines of "we won't be pressing charges as the insurance company has dealt with it". Thanks, that'll teach them.
It's amazing to think that if I walk down a street swinging a cricket bat at people I'll be thrown in jail but if I drive down a street at 30mph in a ton of metal and run someone off the road then absolutely nothing will be done - and even if I manage to kill someone I can just claim it was all a terrible accident and the worst that will happen is that I'll lose my licence for a few months.

I think you do have a valid point there. Couple of recent accidents here ...none serious - but they did hold up traffic

Per one report ... Both drivers belligerently arguing that neither was speeding and each accusing the other of - er - speeding!

Basically - neither was watching the road ahead and both were on the white line aas the passed a parked car....Of course my lad and lass taking the call caught the flak over all this...when they pointed this out... Niehter had the sense to move their vehicles to the side and swap details - but then if our chaps had not turned up to clear the traffic - they would have been thumping three bells out of each other.

The other one? Simply pulled out from a being parked at the kerb without looking.... Of course - the other driver - in his lorry was "speeding" because numpty failed to give an over shoulder glance.... Numpty got the full acid over it though with lots of mentions about dooring cyclists....

He was injured and unable to drive and ambullance called ... hence one of the chaps attended the scene to get traffic on the move again.

Neither incident was "serious" as such and injuries were basically bruising and bruised egos.

Both incidents caused more hold up and build of congestion than they needed to though..

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.