Safe Speed Forums

I think information has a real role to play. I think young people (men especially) don't understand the nature of their responsibilities nor the nature of the risk.

Lessons in schools that explain the nature of risk and responsibility would go a long way to cutting down the numbers.

We shouldn't be too critical of young men who have seen through the road safety platitudes, but who do not have the experience to work out the realities for themselves.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I 'split' this post from a Clubhouse topic.



I think I might have hit very close to an important target here. I don't think I've exactly expressed it in these terms before. I've been close - but this might just be the bulls eye.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Undoubtedly true in some more discerning cases where the (over) reaction of recalcitrance is then serious. However, I really doubt that a high percentage of young drivers even hear the platitudes, let alone recognise them for what they are (rather than what they purport to be), but simply push the envelopebeyond their capability (which is possibly from a car control perspective already high, but lacking the hazard perception, which only comes with experience, advanced tuition and, paradoxically, at least temporarily, slowing down and observing more).

I wouldn't normally point out typos but it took me several reads to work out the flavour of the emboldened bit thanks to "seen though" >> "seen through"

Thanks for the typo flag. I've fixed it. Bit of a tricky one!



Look at it this way ... The predominent message is 'stick to the speed limit for safety' or 'speed kills' - but when you drift over the limit, nothing happens. It's not a big step to assume that all the messages are 'fuddy duddy' and pointless.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I agree fully - for the small (IMHO) percentage of people that hear any of the messages at all.

No matter what anyone says or does young people, males particularly, will take risks. The more people say don't, the more they will. All people can do is tell them what might happen and then let them make there own mistakes. I'm am sure there is some evolutionary reason why we do it, and we've all done it. When we've done it we look back and laugh and say it was ok. But when it's someone half our age we look down on them.

I can but my hand on my heart and say I wish I took MORE risks when I was 17.

I agree with that. But I think the situation is considerably worsened because they don't have the information to understand the risks. Like almost everything in road safety, we shouldn't be looking to eliminate a problem - we should be looking to lessen a problem.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The problem is RISK, and INEXPERIENCE.

A track driver can take risks AND know how to recover if he / she goes too far. A youth on testosterone will take the risk without regard for the consequences, or the knowledge required to recover the situation.

Driving on snow is an accepted risk if you reduce the consequence by moderating behaviour - you KNOW you MIGHT slip. When I was still at school (6th form) a friend wrote off his mothers car by spinning it in a lane, and smashing both ends and sides - below the speed limit, but no anticipation.
His mum was in the car, but let him drive because "she was frightened by driving on snow"!
It is not covered in the driving test, so there must be lots of drivers out there with similar demons, who place themselves and others at risk by their own fears and inexperience. It's now worse, because otherwise experienced drivers have been denied the chance to learn by a series of mild winters.

We MUST make the effort (and expense) to train drivers to a higher standard, AND if necessary limit the youthful drivers until they get some experience.
I would personally like to see them tested on a track, and encouraged to learn with a skidpan and other devices.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Unfortunately the evidence suggests that if we give them such skills they will use them, pushing the envelope further, and ultimately crash more frequently and more severely.

Training in observation, anticipation, hazard perception and risk assessment may prove to be effective. It may also be possible to increase risk aversion. Ultimately the objective is to increase margin for error.

Perhaps the relationship is this one:


Increasing perceived risk or reducing risk acceptance are ways that actual risk might be reduced.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Currently in Kendal there is a campaign to stamp out young drivers practicing their handbrake turns etc. in public car parks at night.
All that has resulted so far is that they have been pushed from one location to another, currently ending up in the ASDA store carpark on Burton Road.

If a facility WAS made available, where they could drive in this manner with a degree of supervision, it WOULD make the area safer, as it seems they WILL carry out this behaviour SOMEWHERE.

Perhaps Ian H has some experience to bring to bear here, because I suspect he has had to do the moving on!

Perhaps my experience is colouring my views, because I practiced these manouvres off road, and not on the highway - and one winter made the most superb skidpan by spreading water on a large expanse of concrete while it froze. After that the road offered no such thrills!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I'm sure that it has been discussed ad nauseum before, but I suspect that everyone's ability to accurately and consistently assess and understand risk is flawed - not just young people's, and not just on the road.

There is a particular issue with young people, and that is the tragic loss of life that occurs with the combination of small, badly maintained, overcrowded vehicles being driven at speed.

Yes, of course. But on the other hand it's all we've got and the success of the species says it's 'good enough'.

As far as road safety is concerned, the objective can only be to try and improve average quality of risk assessment. That means the most accurate information - nothing like what we're getting at present, in fact.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The vast majority of young people seem to come through their 17-21 driving years unscathed, though. Are they just lucky, or is there some factor that separates the responsible from those who are constantly wanting to push things to the edge?

In my experience, a lot of young people today seem to be rather po-faced and moralistic, to be honest.

Is the dramatic decline in the take-up of driving licences in the under-21 age group likely to be a positive factor? (down from around 43% to 26% in ten years, according to government statistics)

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

has this actually been proven? In my case it slowed me down as I discovered just how abruptly you could lose control if you keep pushing the limits.

There's quite a bit of evidence although I don't seem to have any of the papers to hand.

In Norway they made skid training compulsory for truck drivers and the winter crash rate doubled.

In Texas they split 6,000 new drivers into three groups. The first had no training. The second had normal driver training. The third had advanced skills training. Then followed these drivers for a few years. Higher training led to more crashes.

I think this really amounts to evidence that conventional 'skills' training tends to be counter productive.

But I wouldn't under any circumstances give up my own skid pan and circuit training.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

We have to hope that they're not just driving unlicenced. The growth in uninsured driving might well be an indication that they are.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

This is a pretty profound point, and goes against the opinions often expressed on here that better training is the key to reducing road casualties.

In my view the key to safety is not skills, but attitude. Both "the roads are full of dithering idiots" and "I feel really scared and threatened by traffic" are unhelpful attitudes. "I am a responsible person trying to do my best and aiming to co-operate with other road users" is what we need to be aiming for.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

A few may be driving unlicensed, but from people I know (who admittedly tend to be at the more responsible end of the spectrum) the general impression is that many young people are deferring learning to drive until after they have finished university.

Whereas when I was of that generation (mid-70s) it was almost a badge of honour to have passed your test before your 18th birthday.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

In the wider context I'm a big believer in training. But the question is: what do we teach? If we teach car control skills we get problems. On the other hand I firmly believe that if we teach observation, anticipation, hazard perception and risk assessment we should get real benefits.

Teaching better attitudes sounds great but is seriously difficult. On the other hand Alex Jerrim's 'self examination' approach looks like it might be able to teach people to teach themselves better attitudes.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I see what you are saying - do you train to survive, or train to show off your new found skills.
If it is COAST skills you aquire, thenI would say the former.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!