Safe Speed Forums

Ernest - driving schools need to be teaching "skills for the road" - not "how to pass the test" . I had a chat with my younger daughter on what she was taught - her instructor taught more than pass the test.( I was impressed , and still am at what she was taught)
My elder daughter --- she passed her test - but i would put her in a driving school to learn , so would my younger daughter - why - lack of skills taught.My youngest one is scared to get in a car with her elder sister - who has a licewnce , but no skills.
A sad inditment of the driving regime - yes.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I've said for a long time that racetracks, dragstrips and the like should be made more accessible. We need something like the Nurenburgring in Germany, where people can just turn up in their own cars and pay £20 a lap to get their fill of driving excitement in a vastly safer environment than the public road network.

Ask anyone you like who does track days - once you've raced "for real" on a track, driving fast on public roads loses all of its appeal. This is true at age 17 or 70.

The problem is this - Say we had 5 deaths on the "ring" in a year, would people start screaming for it to be closed down, even though it had prevented a proven 250 deaths on the roads? The existance of the "ring" would have saved 245 lives, but try telling that to the families of the 5....

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

Good point. But faced with the huge cost of driving lessons, all but the very rich will opt for "teach me the bare minimum I need to know to pass the test" rather than take twice the number of lessons and become a truly safe driver.

I think if the government started diverting money from camera fines into better driver education (rather than the treasury's coffers), a lot of the opposition to cameras would disappear.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

34 years ago I passed my driving test and began to explore the limits of performance of a Landrover, Hillman Imp and Ford Escort, on and off the public road. While I had a few near misses in my first year I turned to road rallying and later stage rallying. I still compete having won the top turbo4WD class in the National championships in 2003 and come 2nd in the Welsh last year. If anything my problems now in competition are from not pushing it quite as hard as the youngsters.

I am absolutely convinced that my and my friends' practice to the limit on and off the stages and the hours spent improving car control on frosty car parks etc have massively benefited my car control and safe driving skills at road ( not necessarily within the limit) speeds. The key is to persuade youngsters to improve incrementally and avoid big risks to themselves and others. This needs input from older more experienced drivers and a culture that encourages it and accepts the risk.

i am an 18 year old male that is exactly what you guys are talking about. i think that speeding is not a very big problem. i know that there is many people against speeding but i believe that it can be good. when i got my license when i was 16 i started speeding right away. not that bad at first but it was worse after i got used to it. i now speed all the time and it is just part of the way i drive. i dont believe that it is dangerous. i know the consequences but it is well worth it. i believe that i am a much better driver because of speeding. after you drive 120mph (what my car tops out at) many times 45 is very slow and easy to drive at. i now know the limits of my car and what it is capable of. i have also never been in an accident or recieved a speeding ticket (1 "rolling" stop even though i believe i was innocent). when you get older than you will most likely slow down but if you know what you're doing i have no problem with speeding. just wanted to give my opinion, thanks.

Then you are an idiot. Exceeding the speed limit is often not dangerous but that does not mean that it is never dangerous. Often driving at the speed limit can only be described as reckless and dangerous.


Please explain just how you know the limits of your car. Have you spent a lot of time on a racetrack? Have you driven in all road conditions? How long have you been driving?

I have been driving for 35 years and consider myself a very good driver, although I admit that at your age I could have written the same gibberish you wrote.

I have driven 1,000's of hours on racetracks yet it took me 8 years before I felt I was truly the master of my E34 M3 (modified).

I have also owned a highly modified Subaru STI for the past 5 years and in no way do I consider myself its master. I have a lot more to learn about that car before I will be able to honestly say I am its master.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Student top up fees - ist why our eldest decided to defer gap year.... They simply cannot afford it.. less so than in our day.

William has car because we pay for it. He ist at advantage - keen drivers for parents - und there are certain family photos of his babyhood... Und he has been educated with COAST]

We tell him und the twins following him same chilling words my Papa told me when I start to drive... ist something which ist enjoyable if used correctly but never ever ever ever
forget that if you screw up - make silly error - you take yourself und others out with you! Und he hissed it in way that ist stamped forever in my memory bank.

Perhaps this ist what ist wrong - the politically correct fear of failing someone or being a bit "off" with them...


But he has learned how to handle skid, corner, drift, accelerated und hold a car at steady 10 mph on a track day.

But "attitude" - that declines as the generally population lose manners und social skills. Kittens have been brough up to be polite und pleasant und patient.

But - in world which demand "now" "immediate" und even paces floor whilst microwave heat garbage which cause flatulent angst in shape of pot nooodles und other rather ghastly chav concoctions with scant regard for culture und taste in world where leisurely art of handwriting und signing your name with an decent fountain pen ist sacrificed at altar of "wannit all /wannit now"attitude as norm und where abusive tantrums und petty name calling also appear to be norm und surefire way to get your own way because parents und pee mob have always said "yes und if you cry you make Mummy very sad" take on discipline - ist hardly any wonder we find attitude similar to that "Star Trek episode" where spoiled brat nearly killed Captain Kirk und Mr Spock by pulling face..

By the way - discipline in "Wild Moggie cat mansion" has always been

"Grrr Fsst ! I count to three und if you continue being so seriously naughty - Mama's claws may decide meet with your tail end " Und - also we fine them out of their pocket money und issue curfews und groundings. Und we use word NO a lot too

Funny but "NO" seem to make them respect you more....

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

The you are a fool - und it only take two ping in two year to return you to L-plates



Was this on motorbike - as you have to be 18 in Europe und 17 in UK to drive car. Are some places in USA where 15/16 year olds can learn to drive car - but even there - ist stringent test on them now.



Driving at safe speed ist about using COAST skills., COAST ist not about speeding - but about driving und making progress without compromising safety und licence - und we do drive fairly fast on some motorways und A/bahn - but this system also ensure we are perceiving hazard all the time.



Und I believe I am better driver for applying my COAST all the time - und my licence ist clean as date issued - blemish free.

Und like lieber Ross - I do drive progressively - especially on track - but I do know dangers of speed - all speeds across the range of the speedo.



My car tops at speeds in excess of this.... but a truly skilled driver can hold a car steady at low speed too - und ist applying COAST because we have to defend against numpties who cannot really feel the speed if they think 45 mph ist "slow"




So at 18 years you are car mechanic?

So perhaps you can tell me the top ten break downs und how to avoid or fix them?

Explain what ist meant by "pinking"

Explain why an OHC engine ist more efficient than a OHV engine Und whatt ist a SOHC engine ?



What ist a Wankel engine (und ta ist - deliberate und not naughty word )



At 18 - you have been drving just one year - und way you are carrying on in complacency of youth - ist mater of time. Please look up COAST on this forum und read lieber IG's Hendon Notes on attitude... ist not pee-cee stuff either. He ist a right rebel really!


I think you may find us interesting on a track day - boy!
Und ist possible to drive at safe speed und make progress und really enjoy the "feel" of the car.

Und like lieber Ross - we are always learning more about car und selves each time we drive. A truly good driver does this. As do all the professional racing und rally drivers... evaluate safety und precision of the drive und where things could be improved - und in normal urban driving - this ist always to focus on the safety und how our drive affected another road user und if any way to improve that little bit more.




Why do I think ist pet troll head testing us out again

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

Others have called you a fool. I think you may be a troll.

Plenty of people here with decades of experience could tell you how much you don't yet know with only a couple of years' experience.

If you really do drive as you claim, then you'll be having to emergency brake frequently. Every time you do that a sign that you have FAILED to perceive or anticipate a hazard. Every time you do you're rolling a deadly dice because you have nothing in reserve. If the brakes are enough you survive. If they aren't you crash and burn.

The following article may be of some assistance: http://www.nearmiss-report.org/safespeed.html . Have a jolly good read. Compare what it says with your experiences on the road. Learn from it quick.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Perhaps you would do well to read this site carefully. And the link to the one I give below.

Whilst the Swiss family have lost no young in car crashes - they have given strong financial backing to this group - and two of them helped set up the site aimed at the young "LEARN AND LIVE!"

Lot of useful stuff on there - including the German system (backs Ted's post about this when this forum first opened) and I would strongly recommend that if you are a genuine poster and not trolling

I would urge you to read this web site without delay It is not just appluaded by Durham Police, Brake and Road Peace - it even has Jeremy Clarkson's and Quentin Wilson's seals of approval on Top Gear as "one to listen to".

Not a bad achievement to have polarised campaigns in support and we could say this with belladonna's contributions to this site as well.

Road safety is about more than speed - and cameras. It's about attitude and COAST skills

http://www.learnandlive.pwp.blueyonder. ... index.html

Please read the facts about newly qualified youngsters.

Young males pass the test more easily than others - qand our present test is of a much lower level than German, Swiss, Austrian, French ones - and Italy is in the process of rejigging because of increasing a/strade limits.


Why we have a two year probationary? (Due to be increased in the above countries to three years and no doubt UK will follow in time)

All statistical dat collated seemed to show that accident rated dropeed by 30% after the first year and by a furhter 20% after the second year. Hence - France plans to increase the period as from next year and Germany plans to follow.

Per the site and I have no questions about their stats - have stats which verify from our own records ...



So - petulant child or troll - think about how far your car has travelled at 45 mph in the two seconds past that school or towards that ice cream van - or the effect this has on your limit point on veru sharp twisty roads.
(And we will have you in Durham - make no mistake on this - we do target idiots here - tis our speciality! )

Lot of other things - some backing insurance company claims - and whilst I agree youngsters tend to have more accidents when with their peers and at night - I would be against "curfews and banning young passengers "

I would say that trying to address the safety issues and their argument for graduated licences on the site is a sound one on the whole



Perhaps Europe has the right idea. Many manufactruing plants will not allow under 18s to operate some machinery - so perhaps this should apply to cars. We are, after all, "operating machinery"





Basically - if they have no aptitude - best to say so and suggest growing up a bit more and then having another go.



Useful site - and Paul - you may find their stats useful for comparison with yours - they do appear to show similarities and Durham provides links to this site amongst others.


Our troll should also consider reading this other worthy site aimed at young people.


http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/roadsafety/brag/


And I also agree with Paul's reply to you amongst others.

I urge you to read Paul's entire site throughly - especially the Cyclings and Improve Driving sections - as well as the links provided as well as

www.ask-what-if.com

and the IAM site.


I also suggest you buy the following:

Driving - Essential skills


AA - How to become an expert driver


Road Craft

Cycle Craft

Motorcycle Craft

Highway Code

and any works by Paul Ripley and John Lyons.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Just to chuck my two penneth in I've had my licence 5 years last November, have averaged 80,000 miles a year, first year had 4 prangs, 3 at low speed was a bit quicker of the mark at the lights than the guy in front Ooops last one was 30 in a 40 limit on black ice with different tyres - changed the handling of the car considerably.

Took the IAM test after 8 observed sessions - mpg up (from 50mpg to 60mpg) less wear and tear on car, changing tyres approx every 40,000 miles.

Have had some rally lessons - great fun really unwinding without worrying about 3pts !!

To date have racked up 400,000 miles in most UK weather conditions and whilst I like to think that I am a reasonable driver am also very much a 'learner' and certainly don't think I know it all.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

just wondering how someone does this? Are you are taxi driver?

I just worked it out that I did about 73,000 in 2004 as a van driver. Would have been on for as much again in 2005 but left in October. Best decision I ever made.... enough stress before you start to think how vulnerable your licence(and livelyhood) is with speed cameras!

As for "speeddeamon" I'm suprised anyone has even entertained a reply. It's the clearest plant we have had in a long while. The writing style seems very familiar. It also doesn't sound like an 18 year old, but rather and older person trying to sound 18. Still a response ensures no lurkers get the wrong impression.

johnsher: "just wondering how someone does this? Are you are taxi driver?"

No I do Health & Safety (mostly construction) and whilst I live in Essex I cover sites/clients from Lincoln down to Poole and all of in between.

Now that I don't have to commute to the office as well I hope to knock 20,000 of a year - Hurrah !!!!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Sales reps who travel length and breadth of country regularly and into Europe could clock this up quite easily

Aye Capri - we all think the guy in question 's our old "pal" again... But then - gave an opportunity to point other lurkers, young and regulars to those sites aimed at young people and which echo in greater part the ideas put forward on this site

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

it's still 300 miles/day, 5 days/week. So at least 40hrs/week just driving. That doesn't leave much time for working, let alone doing anything else. Which is why I ask how someone manages to knock up 80k/year without being a taxi driver/trucker.

A lot of sales reps are likely to be routinely working 60-70 hours a week anyway. Not good for safety if he's doing 6 hours driving on top of 7 hours working, but regrettably it is a fact of life.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

As Peter says most will be doing more then 40 hours a week, plus a typically long commute, and private milage in the evenings and weekends as well means it's easily possible for sales reps to clock up the miles.

I wouldn't want to see rigidly set working hours introduced, but employers and employees should work together to ensure that the hours worked are sensible and safe driving is taken seriously. Sadly not all employers are willing to be reasonable and some employees can take being a workaholic to silly degrees.

I'm a 17 year old male, living in Northern Ireland, passed my test at end of November... I only drive about 150 miles a week, sometimes a wee tiny bit more.

Over here we have R plates, and are restricted to 45 mph for a year (I'm sure you know this). I totally agree with this system, and I actually think that we need to be taught more about driving in different conditions (ie Pass Plus) but we really need this before we are allowed to drive alone. The only time I think that having the 45 limit is on a motorway. I've had a few scary moments at 1am and times like that with Subaru Imprezas and various other 'fast' cars, not realising that I was only doing 45-50mph, when they were doing in the region of 90. Its quite scary to see how fast the tiny speck of headlight you saw a couple of seconds ago can actually grow into a full bonnet...

I'm not saying that we're capable of more speed, but it's just a bit scary at times.

After I passed my test I would say I was reckless for about a fortnight, driving at 45 on country roads, and it didn't take long for me to realise that I could seriously hurt myself, or kill the pedestrian that is walking down my side of the road around this corner, and I quite quickly 'wised up'.

I haven't yet (hopefully this is not a jinx) crashed, spun or managed to pull off any stupid 'stunt' in my car, but I have skidded taking a corner slightly too quickly for my skill (or unskill) level... And after that I suddenly became even more aware of the dangers.

My instructor wasn't an ADI or anything, he was just a friend who instructs friends, and while I was learning he did teach me how to do a U turn properly, and he offered to teach me how to do J turns, to try and show me how the car can handle when you do silly things. I haven't seen him recently and I really must get up to him to get a few extra 'lessons' on car handling and stuff.

Back on the 45mph limit, it is really quite difficult when you need to be in the right hand lane coming up to a roundabout, and only being able to do 45 on a dual carriageway/motorway, I have had to sort of abort a few times and take the first left at a roundabout, find a suitable place to turn, and then reattempt the roundabout... I know that is probably bad planning and anticipation on my part, but personally speaking, driving on lane 2 of a motorway at 45mph is suicidal...

Oh, and I think we should be taught how to deal with aggressive drivers... When you're on L plates you're really mollycoddled, and you just assume that people are being aggressive because you are a learner, but suddenly you're alone and you get tailgated in a 30 zone, while you are doing 30. The tailgater then goes into the right hand lane at a set of traffic lights which are at red. The right hand lane is for right turn only, and he cuts you up on the green light, speeding off then braking sharply when he reaches a queue of traffic...

Anyway, enough rambling from me, I just wanted to give a bit of a 17 year olds input to this, hopefully I've been reasonably sensible.

Thanks

Michael

Ok just to clear things up, the 80,000 is my total (private + work), , some of my sites are 2-3 hours drive each way plus a couple of hours on site so my days are not excessively long, and the client pays.

I am lucky enough to have an understanding boss, if I feel tired or have, say a 4 hour drive to site then I book a hotel, come back next day.

Part of my job is investigating accidents, I have no intention of being investigated myself !!

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk