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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 23:45 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
ANOTHER interesting fact - this photo:

http://www.redspeed-int.com/en/images/image003_big.jpg

shows the cameras that I drive past every day - they are not showing calibration markings on the road when in real life, they do! I wonder if they doctor the photos?



7 people caught in 20 mins? Must be a lovely revenue raising location.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 00:29 
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It probably is - the shot is of one of the major southbound routes into Manchester, it's a lovely big wide road with superb vis. Shortly after the cameras it turns 3 laner coming up to a major set of crossroads about 400 yards after the cameras.

The camera is placed just after a pedestrian crossing - there is also one enforcing the northbound carriageway.

I will take a couple of photos so people here can see these how these cameras look from the roadside.

See my post about something I observed with the Northbound camera today here - http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5995


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 00:57 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
mpaton2004 wrote:
ANOTHER interesting fact - this photo:

http://www.redspeed-int.com/en/images/image003_big.jpg

shows the cameras that I drive past every day - they are not showing calibration markings on the road when in real life, they do! I wonder if they doctor the photos?


hmm - think its time the cameras were "doctored",like the A5 one , cue music, "BURNING RING OF FIRE", HOWEVER a camera is only as good as the sum of its parts - like mains suplies / cables out (digital cams) ---and al sors of things - the bloke with a grudge against the railways between Birmingham and Rugeley proved that.( not suggesting things,as im a legal sort of bloke)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 01:18 
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People, they are NOT calibration markings please stop using that term, they are not used the calibrate the equipment in any way - they are only to aid the secondary check and are not *required*.

Gareth


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 09:42 
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If you get nicked by a GATSO, you can request to see the photos, which show white increment marks on the road surface and timeframes- you can at least check your speed, then decide whether to let it go to court or not. Quite a few cases of people checking the photos and proving the prosecution was wrong (GATSO triggered by another vehicle etc).
If you get nicked by a REDSPEED and request the photos, there are no times shown. You are, therefore, unable to check what speed you were doing. So, it's either go to court, or pay up just in case. Intimidation.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:23 
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biker wrote:
If you get nicked by a REDSPEED and request the photos, there are no times shown. You are, therefore, unable to check what speed you were doing. So, it's either go to court, or pay up just in case. Intimidation.

What makes you say that?
As DIY already said, if they can’t prove to a driver that they were speeding, the case won’t stand in court.

Redspeed site wrote:
also a wide angle image showing the time delay between frames

probably buried within the “Camera/frame details” tab


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:30 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
ANOTHER interesting fact - this photo:

http://www.redspeed-int.com/en/images/image003_big.jpg

shows the cameras that I drive past every day - they are not showing calibration markings on the road when in real life, they do! I wonder if they doctor the photos?

Given the fact that (as I understand it) to date there have only been 2 installations – both on motorways, and that road shown in that photo isn’t a motorway (pavement next to the carriageway), then I would suggest the site in that photo is merely a test site (I would be happy to be proven wrong)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 13:20 
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Quote:
RedSpeed™ operates using digital technology and therefore requires no film.


Are the images tamper proof, with some system to show tampering - or is it just a matter of time till it happens or is alleged?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 13:21 
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It's not a test site, I drive through it every day :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 13:42 
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In law, the emphasis is on the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. In the case of speeding, the proof is provided by the fact that you have been done; it is assumed that the technology is correct and you are guilty, and it is down to the defendant to prove otherwise. A lack of time reference points, and the fact that the distance travelled between shots can be variable, makes this impossible for a defendant.
The MCN article shows photos from someond done by a REDSPEED. There are 3 photos- a close-up to show the number plate, and the other 2 showing distance travelled against the road markings. There are no times shown.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 13:49 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
It's not a test site, I drive through it every day :D

But are speeding offences being pursued as a result of offences from that site?
The presence of the camera, flashing or not, doesn’t mean it’s not a test site.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 13:56 
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biker wrote:
The MCN article shows photos from someond done by a REDSPEED. There are 3 photos- a close-up to show the number plate, and the other 2 showing distance travelled against the road markings. There are no times shown.

Perhaps not on those photos….

Forgive my incredulousness (you too mpaton), but I find it difficult to believe that an SCP would send out notices omitting such readily available, simple, but critical information.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 14:24 
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Why do you find it so difficult to believe?
When an SCP can send out an NIP to a vehicle which, when measured against the GATSO marks and timings, was clearly doing less than 20 in a 30, which is obvious from the photos?This was an "administrative error". Proves that no-one actually checks the photos to see if it's a real offence, they just send out the NIP.
When an SCP can send a speeding ticket to a farmer, showing his tractor was doing over 80? (NIP sent to the keeper of a vehicle whose reg was similar to, but different from, the one in the photo). Another "administrative error. Don't they know the alphabet?
When various SCPs set the cameras up in the wrong place, and nick thousands of people as they leave the restrictions and are accelerating back up to "normal" speed, then keep quiet about the whole affair?
Whether by incompetence or malicious intent, I believe SCPs to be capable of everything bar logical thought, honesty and transparency.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 15:10 
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g_attrill wrote:
People, they are NOT calibration markings please stop using that term, they are not used the calibrate the equipment in any way - they are only to aid the secondary check and are not *required*.

Gareth


You are quite correct in pointing out that the road markings are for secondary checking and not for calibration but they are required for compliance with Type Approval. This is my most recent post on Pepipoo regarding this subject:

Max Damage wrote:
Ha ha, what a laugh. Mr Bowen should perhaps read the content of his own website before slamming the phone down. My old friend Mr Callaghan appears to be his usual self i.e. incoherent, intellectually challenged and a veritable mine of misinformation.

A&S SCP website wrote:
RedSpeed secondary check marks

As in the case of fixed roadside Gatso cameras, there is a requirement to have secondary check marks painted on stretches of road covered by RedSpeed digital speed cameras.
The marks are placed exactly one metre apart, so the distance travelled by the speeding vehicle between the two photographs can be calculated.
This is done purely as a safeguard for the driver - to ensure the speed registered by the camera is accurate.
With digital cameras, the speed between the check marks is calculated automatically by the processing equipment.
Where there is a discrepancy - or the equipment fails to produced the secondary check speed - no action will be taken against the driver.

Of course, a condition of Type Approval will be the ability to scientifically demonstrate that the secondary check is valid and can accurately corroborate the primary speed measurement. However, the fact that this is no longer an independent quality check by an operator but now a function of the camera itself is cause for concern as it flies in the face of fundamental quality principles with respect to the verification of data integrity. The Redspeed camera is essentially Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Indeed this situation could prove to be highly illegal as automated criminal prosecutions are forbidden under British law. In addition I wonder how secure the software is from unauthorised data editing. Mind you, Section 23 of the 1991 RTA clearly states that only evidence generated by the camera itself is admissible in Court.

Incidentally the Redspeed Redspeed (formerly Monitron Redspeed) was Type Approved back in 2003 and has been used for speed enforcement in the Limehouse Tunnel link for a long time. MCN need to polish up their investigative journalism skills.

Best regards,

Max


Excellent point about about the data files being tamper proof, as echoed in my comments above. I believe software and electronic data integrity will be the next major battleground in the war against the scammers.

Best regards,

Max


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 15:32 
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biker wrote:
Why do you find it so difficult to believe?
Because all those caught out by such a system would be inclined to reject the conditional offer and take the matter to court (if only for disclosure), in which case the fine wouldn’t go to the SCP – all for the sake of not printing a little number!

I agree that the SCPs will go to great lengths to keep their revenue and cover up any mistakes, but resorting to this tactic presents a nonsensical, unnecessary risk to them.

There is a big difference between the occasional administrative error and an outrageously obvious error of policy.

I will remain sceptical until I see a (whole) NIP without the means of confirming the secondary measurement.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 15:44 
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But knowing that 99% of people will probably pay up because they're too scared to risk it in court makes it a risk worth running, doesn't it? And if a case goes to court and is rejected, it's simply the one that got away, plenty more fish in the sea (unless someone, somewhere picks up on the grounds for the rejection and starts a campaign.....)
And that's it from me on this particular topic.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 22:02 
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smeggy wrote:
mpaton2004 wrote:
It's not a test site, I drive through it every day :D

But are speeding offences being pursued as a result of offences from that site?
The presence of the camera, flashing or not, doesn’t mean it’s not a test site.


It's a live site, I know people who've had NIPs from it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 22:55 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
It's a live site, I know people who've had NIPs from it.

A live enforcement site where no independent secondary measurement can be confirmed?


…………


OK, this prompted me to do a lot more digging – I could be eating humble pie here!

If I have interpreted all I have just read correctly, it would appear Redspeed (strictly speaking Speedcurb) has been given HOTA for speed measurement without the requirement of a photographic secondary speed measurement (Redguard does to a limited extent). Gatso style graded lines are not needed; the operator processing the speeding offence doesn’t really have to do anything.


What makes me say that now?

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-an ... r-0001.pdf

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-an ... -00032.pdf

http://www.redspeed-int.com/en/products ... proval.htm

The hardware is capable, but they don’t have to turn it on ?

Did I really interpret all that correctly?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 23:42 
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smeggy wrote:
A live enforcement site where no independent secondary measurement can be confirmed?

welcome to Australia where 'the camera never lies'.

Well, except all those faulty Victorian ones... oops.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 19:04 
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The ones near me have the road markings


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