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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 05:04 
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Rural Traffic Officer wrote:
I also found myself motivated to develop a list of fatality causation for fatalites I've been involved with over my years on traffic. Five of the most recent are still sub judice and have not been included.

It is an exhaustive list. I have not cherry picked.

They certainly do not fall into the stereotypical fatal RTC which the DfT would have you believe is happening all the time.

For each one, ask yourself if cameras would have helped.
For the boy racer/motorbike collisions, consider if this accident might simply have been displaced elsewhere, or perhaps had been displaced elsewhere because of the positioning of speed camera sites.

1. Motorway. - One drunken pedestrian crossed the motorway to hitch north following an argument with his wife. He was hit and killed by a Ford Transit van. He was then hit by six other vehicles.

2. Motorway. - Car derived van being driven south. Driver fell asleep and vehicle left carriageway colliding with a tree. Passenger was killed. Driver blamed dead passenger for grabbing the wheel causing the van to veer off the motorway.

3. Motorway. - Driver fell asleep. Vehicle hit central reserve and overturned. Passenger who was not wearing belt was trapped between car and road as it was coming to a halt. He died later in hospital.

4. Motorway. - HGV livestock carrier returning empty, having delivered to Wales. Driver fell asleep and collided with slow moving artic on a motorway ascent. Driver killed.

5. Motorway. - Drunken woman opened emergency door on a coach, stepped out and was hit and killed by a passing motorist.

6. Motorway. - Motorcyclist collided with central reserve. Died later in hospital. Suspected blackout due to malignant brain tumour.

7. Motorway. - Driver in queue of traffic in contraflow, for unknown reason crossed the (then minimal) barrier between contraflow lanes colliding head on, killing himself. Possible use of mobile phone – not confirmed.

8. Motorway. - Vehicle swerved to avoid a stationary vehicle in middle lane, driver of which had fallen asleep and hit the central barrier. Vehicle exits the nearside of the motorway, colliding with a small tree. A four year old unbelted child was catapulted through the window and killed. Speed witnessed not to be in excess of the limit.

9. Dual carriageway. – Motorist attempting to turn right over non grade separated D/C at dusk fails to see illuminated motor cycle which is travelling at 70-80 mph. Motorcyclist is killed.

10. Dual carriageway. - Motorcyclist believed to be travelling at approximately 120 mph not seen by car driver who pulled out, killing both biker and driver.

11. Dual carriageway. - HGV (fairground vehicle) making RH turn on non grade separated D/C in darkness. Stopped at the central reserve leaving unlit trailer in lane two. Trailer not seen by car driver who collided with trailer and was killed. Car speed witnessed to be ‘not excessive’

12. Dual carriageway. - Elderly couple on tandem, overtaken by HGV, driver of which stated that the tandem swerved into his path. Both cyclists killed.

13. Dual Carriageway. - Male driving home on town bypass having purchased a length of timber which he had positioned through the front nearside window and rested on the rear parcel shelf. The timber protruded about 4 feet out of the window. The driver drove too close past a road sign causing the timber to catch behind the sign. The timber pivoted on the window upright causing the other end to bat the driver on the back of his head breaking his neck and killing him.

14. ‘A’ road. - Male driver crossed centre line and collided with car coming other direction. Female driver, returning from a night out was killed. Male was drunk and tired.

15. ‘A’ road. - Male on his 18th birthday in a car he had been gifted that day. Accepted a challenge from his mates to drive through a winding road at night at high speed with lights off. Lost control and drove though a wall into a tree killing three of the five car occupants including himself.

16. ‘A’ road. - Three young males in car driver driving at excessive speed. Car lost control and collided with a van killing all three in the car.

17. ‘A’ road. - Male lost control on a bend on an unusual road layout, crossing DWL system, colliding with a panel van. Vehicle had serious suspension problems and a seriously defective under-inflated tyre. Driver of car was killed.

18. ‘A’ road. - Young male driver with 3 passengers. While showing off to his passengers reached speeds in excess of 100 mph before losing control, colliding with a car with an elderly couple. The elderly passenger was the only one of the six who survived.

19. ‘A’ road. - Town centre. Elderly male presses accelerator instead of brake. Vehicle collided with a small roundabout, took off and landed through driver side window of second vehicle, killing driver.

20. ‘A’ road. - Female driver entered major road from minor road. Did not notice HGV which collided with her car killing her.

21. ‘A’ road. - Foreign minibus driver turned into major road. Was confused about the side of the road he should have been driving on. Mistakenly changed from the LHS to RHS of road causing him to collide with a motorbike, killing rider and pillion.

22. ‘A’ road. - Driver who was known to be likely to be driving drunk on that particular evening failed to stop for a police officer on foot. He sped off and failed to negotiate a double bend two miles away colliding at high speed with an oncoming vehicle. Innocent driver died the following day.

23. ‘A’ road. - Drunken male pedestrian walking home along a quiet unlit road between two villages using the white road delineation line as a guide. Drunk driver failed to see him, collided and killed him, then failed to stop. Was stopped and arrested after a short pursuit 30 miles from scene.

24. ‘A’ road. Three 17 year old males returning home from a night out, full of ‘E’s. Driver (unlicenced) lost control on a bend colliding with a tree. Unbelted passenger was thrown out, impaled on a fence and killed.

25. ‘A’ road. - Cyclist returning after an evening training session with all lights on. White van exited from a minor road causing cyclist to collide with side of van knocking him off his bike causing injuries to his leg. Rather than protect the scene, white van man moved to the side of the road to park, then returned to help. Another motorist ran over the cyclist, killing him, then drove off. Although there was evidence that a female drunk driver had killed the cyclist it could not be proved.

26. ‘A’ road. - Three young drunk males in car, driver driving quickly and erratically. Failed to negotiate sharp RH bend, climbed wall and hit a tree 10 feet up killing all three occupants.

27. ‘A’ road. - Two drunken males in a Sierra Cosworth. Owner wished to sell the car to the other male who test drove the car at 100+ mph into a tree killing both.

28. ‘A’ road (40 mph limit). - Elderly male pedestrian tumbled into road and was killed by passing motorist. No suggestion of excess speed.

29. ‘A’ road. - Elderly male driver crossed centre line of a sweeping bend colliding head on with car coming other direction. Killed his wife (FSP) and driver of the other vehicle.

30. ‘A’ road. - HGV driver failed to notice temporary traffic lights in road ahead. He collided with rear of queue at lights crushing the car driver of the last car in the queue.

31. ‘B’ road. - Young male drunk cyclist, hurrying to make last orders, descended the hill between home and the pub at inappropriate speed. Collided with kerb, which catapulted him into a wall killing him.

32. Minor road. - Drunken young male having fallen out with his girlfriend pinched his mate’s car and drove it at excess speed along a country road into a tree. Car burst into flames killing driver.

33. Minor road. - Young novice driver testing his ability in a small car in a winding country road collided head on into a SUV. Novice driver was killed.

34. Minor road. - Husband and wife on two motorbikes. Husband failed to negotiate left hand bend because of excessive speed and collided head on with a local bus killing himself. Bike and front of the bus burst into flames. Female rider took enough speed off to avoid head on impact but collided with side of the bus causing serious injuries.

35. Minor road. - Motor biker on weekend ride out failed to negotiate left hand bend, and collided with a wall killing himself.

36. Residential street. - Young moped rider messing around on pavement collided at low speed with young female who fell badly. She died 5 days later from brain compression injuries.

37. Residential street. - Elderly male reverses out of driveway of his own house. Fails to see his wife on the pavement. Reverses over her killing her.

38. Residential street. - Two drunk sisters in car. Drunk driver collides with parked car killing her sister who was not wearing a seatbelt.

39. Disused airfield. - Two 15 year old female drivers driving towards each other playing chicken. They collide and one female passenger is killed.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:39 
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It's quite staggering how many of these crashes involved drunk drivers . It also confirm what most of us round here already suspected that very few of them had anything to do with speed. Do you know if this pattern is repeated accross the country?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:26 
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semitone wrote:
It's quite staggering how many of these crashes involved drunk drivers . It also confirm what most of us round here already suspected that very few of them had anything to do with speed. Do you know if this pattern is repeated accross the country?


Pretty much repeated in every rural area IMO. There may be some key differences in urban areas.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:06 
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Please, please will the IAM look carefully at incident number 28 and amend their demonstration drive video.

Their driver contents himself with a warning horn note for a pedestrian standing on the edge of a pavement at a road junction, and then drives past quite close in and at a little too high a speed for my liking. Quite likely the speed was comfortably within the speed limit, but it still looked a little imprudent to me.

This is only my view of it of course, but I do think the IAM should review that part of their video.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 21:09 
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Obviously very sad situations, which we all would wish didn’t happen.

Very few of these have any relationship to the normal speed offences for which most driver and riders are fined and penalised, for marginally infringing a speed limit. Perhaps a couple of them would seem to come within the category of excessive speeding which might have been prevented by speed cameras, but unlikely.

I it certainly is in accordance with my experience within my circle of family, friends and acquaintances. The primary issues would appear to be drunkenness, tiredness, misjudgement and stupidity.

Of course we know the reasons why speed cameras are used is because,

1) Speed is the one thing you can directly measure, so it is easy to achieve convictions.

2) It creates a self sustaining revenue stream for the police to help to reduce to cost to the government.

3) It is good politics, since it produces numbers (however misleading) which can be used to show that something is being done about reducing road accidents.

The trouble is that the real situation is far more complex than a simple speed number, but politicians want simple, short-term fixes and spin, rather than considering the complex long-term strategy that is really needed.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 21:21 
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Can't be true - we must have at least 1/3 of these accidents being speed related - the Government says so - and Mr Blairs lot are NEVER wrong ( now did he forget to vote or was it intentional ??) :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 22:29 
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wow, sobering stuff.

Plenty of drunks/idiots killing themselves, but a rather worrying number where an innocent motorist minding their own is suddenly killed by some moron. What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 23:49 
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BlackadderTF wrote:
What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.

Assuming that there isn't a tree in the way - head for the scenery, it's softer than an oncoming vehicle.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 00:36 
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pogo wrote:
BlackadderTF wrote:
What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.

Assuming that there isn't a tree in the way - head for the scenery, it's softer than an oncoming vehicle.

Not around here it's not! Lots of rocks and stone walls which are NOT held together with cement. Lots of visitors assume if you hit them they fall down. They do, but not without a fight!
Good point though about choosing an exit strategy should you find yourself unable to avoid a collision of some sort.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 01:00 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
pogo wrote:
BlackadderTF wrote:
What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.

Assuming that there isn't a tree in the way - head for the scenery, it's softer than an oncoming vehicle.

Not around here it's not! Lots of rocks and stone walls which are NOT held together with cement. Lots of visitors assume if you hit them they fall down. They do, but not without a fight!

True... Perhaps I should have said "it's usually softer..." :-) But there's no doubt that you don't want to hit a large tree - those b*ggers are very firmly fixed to the world!

I suppose that a drystone wall would have marginally more "give" than a tree or vehicle coming the other way, but I'd prefer not to have to choose. I wonder whether loose rocks would manage to make their way through a laminated screen?

Ernest Marsh wrote:
Good point though about choosing an exit strategy should you find yourself unable to avoid a collision of some sort.

Taught to me a long time ago as an "extreme" strategy in "defensive driving"... Only had to use it a couple of times in 40 years, both incidents involved pillocks coming round bends on my side of the road... No damage other than grass (and other!) stains. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 02:13 
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It all makes pretty grim reading, but underlines our assertion that speed per se is not the cause. I wonder how many of those summaries will go to the stats of BRAKE and the like with the phrase '...excess speed was not indicated...' carefully omitted?

I'm sorry, but article 13? How many times have you seen some gonzo with 8ft of 4X2 in a Nissan Micra and thought "He's only got to catch the end of that on something..." :yikes:

I think it was the choice of phrase '...bat him on the back of the head...' that did me - I really did try not to.... :rotfl: :nono:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 02:41 
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Very very typical - and not just rural areas which have these incidents.

Not all incidents are speed related or even caused by speed.

Saddest thing about this list?

Am in my (deep breath now - 52 nd year on the planet - and have a life time of experience as I followed my father and older brother into the Police Force on graduating. Collectively - Dad, self and my brothers and one WPC sister have seen the above accidents happen repetitively - and no speed camera is ever going to stop the above from happening.

So - perhaps constant nagging?

Better driver and road user information reminders - memorable, entertaining, watchable and hard hitting where necessary like the current bike one...

Promoting a pride in driving well and encouraging a learning and skill develpoment ethos - which does not seek to make us all into a Schuhmacher or the late great Burns - but simplly and efficiently safe

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:50 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
pogo wrote:
BlackadderTF wrote:
What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.

Assuming that there isn't a tree in the way - head for the scenery, it's softer than an oncoming vehicle.

Not around here it's not! Lots of rocks and stone walls which are NOT held together with cement. Lots of visitors assume if you hit them they fall down. They do, but not without a fight!

Actually, never mind Armco, dry stone walls are one of the neatest progressively deforming barriers around. Whilst there is clearly the risk of a stone going through the windscreen generally they don't, as the impact tends to throw them away from the car.

I think on balance I'd rather hit a dry stone wall at speed than an Armco barrier.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:19 
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driving pride

In Gear wrote:
Very very typical - and not just rural areas which have these incidents.
. . . . . . . . . . . . .
Promoting a pride in driving well and encouraging a learning and skill development ethos - which does not seek to make us all into a Schumacher or the late great Burns - but simply and efficiently safe

Pride and enthusiasm in my driving is what I used to have until a couple of years ago, when I first got caught with a speed camera (camouflaged car and pipes across the road) when moving with the traffic flow at the extremity of a 30mph speed limit in open country and again recently with an LTI 20.20 on a dual carriageway with a 40mph limit, both moderately over the speed limit. That was after some forty years of nearly event free driving. So now my primary concern is not so much with driving to maximise safety, but with driving to minimise being caught by a mobile speed camera. That can result in being less safe, such as if it results staying closer to the preceding vehicle to help obscure the number plate from a speed camera. Previously I would always try to maximise the distance between myself and other vehicles, even if that required a moderate infringement of the speed limit, but not any more.

It is little wonder that speed cameras have slowed the rate of reduction in accidents and are contributing to accidents due to the distraction they cause and perverse effect they have on driving behaviour.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:46 
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Hmmm, quite sobering (no pun intended) reading...

I believe that motorcyclists (of which I am one) crashing on left-handers is the most common biker-at-fault accident?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 14:05 
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Remarkable that 10% of these are cuased by falling asleep while others might have drowsiness a cause of inattention.

Seems to be a problem largely ignored by DfT and govt except perhaps where Gary Hart had to be crucified to divert attention from other official shortcomings.

I have lost a friend to falling asleep and was 2nd on scene of a fatal involving a van ruuning into an artic and sleep was the obvious cause there too.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 19:31 
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Regarding Bottyburp's question:
Initially, it was believed that virtually all of the "bike crashes on bend" accidents were down to the rider (more specifically, male riders in the 30-to-40 age bracket on high-powered machines, on l/h bends).
However, subsequent investigations (supported by photographic evidence) proved that a suprisingly large number of these accidents were due to oncoming car drivers taking the "racing line" through the bend, and crossing the white line(s) onto the opposite carriageway, forcing the biker (who was sitting just to the left of the white line, for maximum view into the approaching corner) to swerve and crash.
Hence, any form of advanced rider training will (or should) mention that, whilst positioning for view is important, positioning for safety should take priority. I did a Bikesafe day with the BiB, and this was certainly made clear, both in the classroom and out on the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 20:10 
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pogo wrote:
BlackadderTF wrote:
What do you do when a pensioner comes around the bend on the wrong side of the road at NSL? Airbags arn't going to save you from that one.

Assuming that there isn't a tree in the way - head for the scenery, it's softer than an oncoming vehicle.


A mate of mine, who is a fireman, put it quite nicely. He said if you're going to crash hit something made by man not something made by God.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 20:23 
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biker wrote:
Regarding Bottyburp's question:
Initially, it was believed that virtually all of the "bike crashes on bend" accidents were down to the rider (more specifically, male riders in the 30-to-40 age bracket on high-powered machines, on l/h bends).
However, subsequent investigations (supported by photographic evidence) proved that a suprisingly large number of these accidents were due to oncoming car drivers taking the "racing line" through the bend, and crossing the white line(s) onto the opposite carriageway, forcing the biker (who was sitting just to the left of the white line, for maximum view into the approaching corner) to swerve and crash.
Hence, any form of advanced rider training will (or should) mention that, whilst positioning for view is important, positioning for safety should take priority. I did a Bikesafe day with the BiB, and this was certainly made clear, both in the classroom and out on the road.

That's interesting! I had been led to believe that l/h bend crashes were always the bikers fault, for overcooking it going into the bend.

For what it's worth, I intend doing a BikeSafe course in a month or so with the BiBs. Really looking forward to learning a thing or 10...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 20:29 
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Biker: "However, subsequent investigations (supported by photographic evidence) proved that a suprisingly large number of these accidents were due to oncoming car drivers taking the "racing line" through the bend, and crossing the white line(s) onto the opposite carriageway, forcing the biker (who was sitting just to the left of the white line, for maximum view into the approaching corner) to swerve and crash."

I have posted on the soapbox regarding this 'Steering Wheel Optional' am seeing more and more of it - it worries me in car !!

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