Safe Speed Forums

every 'expert' I've ever been with would have said (and have said) exactly the same things as your IAM guy.

Everyone's system is perfect until they crash... that's why most people don't bother with training. At least you've taken that step.

Triple s sir,

reading your post I can't help thinking about old dogs and new tricks. Also maybe your observer was not the most tackful.

I did Rospa last year. My observer is a retired trafpol and a top bloke. Before we started he told me what he expected of me ie drive to the system and that there would be no point in even starting if I wasn't prepared to have some one critise my driving. Once we got driving he'd let me go then would find a place for me to pull over and we'd go through any little mistakes I made. No big deal. For me it was the whole point of doing the course, putting my money where my (big) mouth was. I thought I was a decent driver and if I wasn't show me how. On the day of my test I didn't have a good day and only got silver even though I'd been driving much better than that all through my training, but that's the way it goes and I'll try again.

I'm not saying that I have the disapline to drive to the system all the time, but I have been making a real effort of late, but it makes a lot of sense once you get into the habit. One time my observer thought I'd be better in a lower gear, I would have prefered a higher one, but he said you've got 7,000 rev's and it's ok to use them now and again.

My dad says that he's been driving since the dawn of time and has full ncb, but didn't see the camera a year or two ago and I would let him near my drivers seat.

Yes, to be honest this tale does sound like six of one and half a dozen of the other.

It certainly sounds as though the observer was very tactless, but on the other hand if you undertake a training course you need to be willing to learn and to accept constructive criticism. When I did the IAM one of the main benefits I saw in it was experience of taking criticism, which I had identified as something I sometimes had a problem with. The IAM (and RoADA) will teach you how to drive according to the Roadcraft system. If you're unwilling to go along with that it's not worth bothering - it is a course, not just a driving assessment.

The best way to approach it is to go along with what they say and do your best to drive in the recommended manner. Then compare it with the way you were driving before. You may well end up accepting some of the new ways, and rejecting others. For example, I certainly don't avoid brake-gear overlap anywhere near as scrupulously as the IAM encourage you to.

Someone who has been driving for many years without any accidents may well feel happy with their technique, but if it has never been peer-reviewed it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two bad habits may have crept in.

As IG only lives an hour or so's drive up the road from you, Dave, possibly he could spare a bit of time to give you a quick assessment

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Well I don't have your competition driving experience Peter, but apart from that I think we probably feel much the same about this entire scenario. We're in a tiny minority I fear.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I guess that I'm in the same boat too.

My background - After passing my driving test (a loooong time ago) I was given intensive coaching by a friend of my dad's who was a retired senior instructor from Hendon. He taught me "the method" as it was then (and still is as far as I can see) and told me that, minus some of the more radical pursuit etc training, that I'd had the same course as the then Class 1 drivers.

In the intervening 40-ish years I've done well in excess of a million accident-free miles (though I have been run into a couple of times whilst stationary at the end of traffic queues!) and have done a lot of competition motoring, won rallies at club and national level, done a few European Championship events then moved on to racing where, amongst other things, I picked up a British Championship in my chosen formula. Since "retiring from the fray" I do a bit of gearbox kart racing to "keep my hand in", I've done some instructing at track and dealer days, and some very entertaining "unorthodox instruction" to VIP chauffeurs, DPG drivers and the like - so I reckon my car control skills are OK

I think that my observation skills and COAST application is still good - my own personal method of judging if I'm driving OK is to continually ask myself "have I been surprised by something?"... If the answer is "yes" then I'm not observing properly and I need to rectify the situation.

But as far as trying to pass the IAM test, I reckon that I'm screwed - my "mechanical" driving skills would put me into the "fail" category. I do, absolutely instinctively, things that do not fit in with the approved IAM method and I'm probably too old to change - even if I wanted to, which I don't really, they work for me though they may not work for everyone.

If the IAM / RoSPA were more pragmatic in their approach, I might be tempted to have a go. I suppose that I ought to try an observed drive with my local group to see if the observer picks up any COAST problems and bad habits that have crept in over the years. Actually, I'd been contemplating contacting IG to see how much he'd charge for something like a 4-hour observation run, as he's an old git like me, so we might get on quite well - and I wouldn't get all huffy about his criticisms as there's absolutely no shadow of doubt that he really knows what he's talking about... Whereas I could be loosely classed as a superannuated nutcase.

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

My experience has been somewhat different, but ended up in the same sort of place.

I learned 'the system' in the 1980s and adjusted to it. The great thing about 'the system' is that it's slow and therefore forces you to plan further ahead. I think that's the real benefit.

But I'd previously learned heel and toe and was pretty reluctant to give up such efficiency measures. So I drifted away from the system. I also think brake gear overlap and brake steer overlap are artforms in their own right.

I also think that there are some very fundamental flaws in 'the system'. For example:

* If I'm planning to overtake am I going to position before gear? No bloody way. Instructors say you have to run the system twice, but they are papering over the cracks.

* If there's an emergency ahead am I going to position before braking? No bloody way. I'm going to lose as much speed as I can while thinking and planning and that means brake first and position later.

* The system is extremely crap for cornering disaster recovery. What are you supposed to do when you discover that the corner is tighter than you thought while in mid gear change?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well some very interesting viewpoints have emerged from this, and I'm sure there is a good deal for all of us to consider.

I would like to thank all of you for your kind comments and helpful suggestions - and indeed the criticism - as my Observer was not exclusively at fault here. After all these years I have become quite set in my ways, and it is difficult to make significant changes quickly. This is especially the case having become accustomed to a system that has been quite thoughtfully evolved in response to practical experiences gained over a very long period.

Whether justified or not, I had reached a stage of having great confidence in my system used my way - it worked for me. Moreover, given a reasonable period of quiet observation and evaluation by an unbiased specialist, I still think it might be found to have considerable validity after all - but we'll probably never know the right answer there.

There are some contributions that need replies from me, not least the very comprehensive one from IG - sorry about the delay IG - so I will of course deal with those. Apart from that I think it would be best to let this topic quietly fade away, unless anyone feels that useful benefits can be extracted from it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

FWIW My girlfriend had the exact same experience as you had.

After Nicky's first drive she was sledge hammered with a barrage of issues with her driving. Personally I found none of the list a big deal. There were issues, most of them the same as in your list, but even taken together Nicky still represents a good driver (soon after we first met she drove us somewhere and noticed a bike coming up fast behind and adjusted her postition appropriatly; from that moment I knew it was love ) who maybe needed a few gentle suggestions to adapt her method to that taught by the IAM.

The car guys do a rotating Observer scheme; you never know who you are going out with until you meet up. So she was nervous every time she went for a lesson.

Nicky had apparently arbitrary rules applied in an often inconsistent manor. I pushed her to stick with it and in hindsight I wish I had not. She failed her test and her driving now is worse than when she started this whole sorry fiasco. Before her style was very smooth, gentle on both the car and other road users. Now she struggles with a mixed up style thats neither hers nor the IAMs.

My experience was completely different. The bike guys, at least in our area (Kent) seemed to have a better approach. I went out on a few rides before my observer (on the bikes you are assigned an observer and they see you all the way through) really started taking me to task. We had a rapport and he had a very good idea of how I rode. So when he said I needed to change something he had seen examples in a number of contexts. He always suggested (unless I rode like a total numpty when he just let me tell him exactly what flavour of crack I was smoking) alternatives and thus let me see what I would gain and loose by following the alternative.

Effectively (and this is a weasel trick I am using all over the place now ) my observer waited until we were friends before trying to change the way I rode. The criticism was easier to take and delivered in a better manor. Thus I am now a full member of the IAM. I did do the test in secret because Nicky was sensitive about her failure.

Interestingly both Nicky and I had the same examiner. The examiner hinted he could provide 'suggestions' for better observers.

Frankly I think a lot of the observers need to learn how to teach before they are allowed out with associates. I am sure they are all very good drivers but a good practitioner does not make a good teacher. I did some instruction a few years ago. I tend to try and get some advanced instruction every 3 years or whenever I move up a 'class' (ie when I got my first 600, then more recently when I got the trumph 1050). The instructors were a collection of serving and ex police bikers and instructors. They knew how to teach this stuff; how to place it in context and how to show how an alternative is better.

Based on bikes more than cars cuz thats what I know.........



I run through the system twice and see nothing wrong with it. In fact overtaking a car on an A road I am running through the system many times, often overlapping, for an overtake. I think the trouble is they teach that a run through the system is necessary for an overtake. They ought to say (sorry for the computer lingo but I can not think of any other way to express it):

Loop
use system to gain position for observation
if overtake looks on
Loop
use system to position for overtake
if overtake is on
Loop
do overtake
End Loop
End loop
End Loop

This sits in loads of other loops and they are all interelated. At a top level there is, for example, the numpty driver loop where I look for 4x4s, white vans and people on their phone.



What happens if you find yourself closing on an accident without space to stop (so you probably have made a mistake as you can not stop in a space you have clear but this happens too often to be funny on a bike. Cars coming out of side roads, swapping lanes etc). I was knocked off by commiting to braking as an automatic response to a car pulling out in front of me when if i had ignored speed, chucked the bike right and left I would have been ok. These days I use some of my space to think. There is one kid alive who whould be dead if I had slammed the brakes on when he opened the car door in front of me.



I do not think they teach, in the standard lessons, methods for dealing with this situation. There goals seem to be based around driving as a whole system not car control as a specific. This is certainly a failing of the IAM system. However most cars and bikes these days corner and brake so well if you get yourself in a mess you are riding 'enthusiastically'.

Mind you corner disaster recovery for me means, smelling diesel, going floppy, hoping you arent run over while you skid along on your arse and remembering when mr bike is tumbling down the road in a blur of hot metal, oil, petrol and shattered plastic he is no longer your friend.

I agree the approach they teach is not perfect but i think the bigger issue is how they teach it.

Well, just some final comments.
I had a chat with a workmate who is an IAM observer with the group I undertook my training with.
He said that Observers should not:
Break out of the initial agreement they make with you at the start if the session unless its for safety reasons, i.e. if he said it was going to be a run to observe your driving thats what it should have remained.
Overload the associate with too many pointers, you'll dent their pride, demoralise them and simply give them too much to think about in one go. He reminded me of what I was told, don't try to fix everything at once!
And observers are reminded (by his group at least) that most people approach the IAM because they are self-motivated to improve; shooting someone down in flames from the outset is self-defeating.
There, thats all I've got to say.

I liked your bit of 'programming'. That's much closer to realistic than anything you can (really) do with 'the system'.



It's true under certain circumstances - especially when the emergency is very close - that steering is the only possible escape.

In a more generic case where steering and braking are both required it's generally best to ignore the system and brake first. More braking time might mean lower speed at impact and braking first can give you more steering options later because you can corner tighter from a lower speed.



When I was driving to the system I had about three incidents where I learned something important about the bend ahead after I'd finished braking and was selecting the right gear. You end up skipping back to the brake with your heart in your mouth. But with a more advanced 'blended system' all you have to do is squeeze a little harder on the brake and maybe run a little deeper into the curve.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Thats the nice thing about a (modern) car; you can do that and all that nice computer technology keeps the wheels turning and gripping. Braking hard and cornering hard is a little more of a challenge on a bike . Even bike ABS will not save you if you have a front wheel skid and are turning more than a little.

One skill my observer suggested I practice is hard back brake (throws the weight forward), hard front brake and release back brake (uses the weight to clamp the front wheel down and then use all that grip to knock off lots of speed), release, wait for the bike to balance (the front suspension needs to rise before it can work and keep the front wheel on the ground in the following....) and maneuver hard. Still not used it anger but I fancy this is a skill I really want to develop.

Dave - I am sure there is very little that needs over much attention.

But the Observers just point out things you may wish to consider and just tighten up in these areas.

Sure - it's difficult to accept there may be just the odd thing after years of doing it and it working fine.. But these are "habits" and it may be that there is something in the habit that just needs "teasing out" or modifying to suit your style.

Kriss (Wildy's big and even wilder sister) and her husband are Observers with a N Yorks IAM. They are based in the Dales - but your neck o't woods is not that far and I am sure Kriss can "liebchen" you through all this. if available She's a vet and a mother of three - she has dafter hours than I do by all accounts. - but she manages to fit in some IAM stuff into her schedule - as does her husband - Mike.

I cannot make promises to come and observe you myself - however much I would like to - to help out - pm me and I'll check my diary for any suitable dates.

But don't give up! And do not feel "demoralised" These are just suggestions - and I suspect you may have been a bit nervous.

Mate - we all are - if we think someone's "judging us" It's natural reaction when all's said and done.

OK - so I am used to someone assessing and appraising me - and that Swiss family assess each other objectively anyway.... But the majority out there? Last time they were judged and assessed was the day they passed their test ... and I do think part of the negative reaction to any criticism of one's driving is pyschological.

deep down - we all know one mistake can kill us and others -and we try to shield ourselves from this - and to rebut constructive criticism is a form of " defence denial" that something horrid can happen




My training required me to read some readings on "psychology"

Oo-er gulp - have an "-ology" then

I know you want the topic to "fade away" but I salute you

It takes a very brave person to post as you did - and that is how I know you will think about the poitns raised and do something about them regardless - and why I say you should not give up just because the Observer raised some things which you did not like to hear at the time .

The fact that you posted it here tells me you have taken note of some elements which only need a little bit of tightening and adaptation anyway.

I would say you are all the stronger as a driver for taking the first step and I would just say

"Take in chin .. think about it.. and make the observer t:censored:t eat his words" "

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As usual - straight forward common sense : bow:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I don't know what taxi driver grip means. Is it a couple of fingers round a spoke or something like that? Anyhow I was using a mixture of push-pull, a bit of rotational and some fixed grip, just doing what I normally do. He seemed to expect push-pull virtually all the time.

I was trying to maintain a two handed grip as much as possible, but normally I don't do that unless I feel two hands are needed, and my left hand kept straying from the wheel onto the gear lever or my left knee - but certainly not his!





My steering wheel grip varies quite frequently, and I would think this is natural. It is also for the most part a very light touch, which I prefer. One can not maintain the same grip for long periods, not that this arose in my case. Our session was all over in about 45 minutes, of which about 20 minutes was spent driving - covering about 8 to 10 miles - and 20 minutes was spent chatting, though he would probably describe this as arguing!







Oh I do. Normally I favour a light touch on the wheel, and I do tend to slide my hands around the rim at times, rather like caressing a much loved woman. This could include wives I suppose. Anyhow I think that a light touch makes for smoother and more relaxed progress, always bearing in mind that one must be able to apply both hands and a tighter grip when needed.

The circumstances in which I would naturally adopt a two handed grip are...highish speed, anything more than very light braking, most cornering situations except perhaps for easy turns at very low speed, and I would also use both hands when overtaking or meeting oncoming traffic.



To be honest, for most of driving career I have not consciously thought about how I steer. I used to just get on with it in what seemed like a natural way, according to circumstances, and it was probably a mixture of fixed grip (especially with the Mark 1 Sprite) and rotational for the most part. In recent years I have taken to using push-pull rather more, and while it looks nice and is more correct, it doesn't seem to feel necessary for much of the time. When I asked the Observer about push-pull steering, he said it should be used all the time, apart from when reversing. He even expected it to be used while driving through a car parking area at little more than walking pace.



...but does it not depend on how it is done? What I'm thinking is that so long as we are only talking about low speed turns, and the gear change is performed smoothly during a period of little or no acceleration, it seems unlikely to cause the car to become unsettled in any way, er, I would suggest. If one were trying to accelerate fairly hard, and corner fairly hard at the same time, I think that would make a good recipe for an upset of some kind.

One popular scenario in which I tend to change gear at the same time as steering arises when negotiating a large roundabout. This will probably not happen if the roundabout is clear as I approach, in which case I'll select 3rd gear, for example, before arriving and retain that for accelerating after the exit. So far so good - I hope. The problem arises where one has to slow to a low speed or stop at the entry to the RB. In that case it seems to me pretty much inevitable that one will be in 2nd gear, or even 1st gear if stopped, before entering the RB. Does this mean that one is expected to buzz round the RB in 1st or 2nd gear, unable to make a gear change because we are at the same time also occupied with the task of steering? I would say not, so I'll do the gear changes during my passage round the RB, and I find it to be no problem.

My right hand will remain in a fixed grip on the steering wheel, initially at about 1 on the clock face, moving round to about 10, then 4 as we go left, right and left, finally exiting the RB. I find I can steer a perfectly smooth and reliable course while doing this, and the gear changes are made quite easily in conjunction with this.



It has been known for me to issue little words of encouragement - when it won't go fast enough! OK, only joking, I hasten to add - before you get your ticket book out.





I reckoned I was making sufficient use of the mirrors to ensure that nothing was overlooked. Maybe he thought I should have made more frequent use of the mirrors, or maybe I was actually using them more than he noticed. I'm not sure.
Oh, and yes you did remember my wife's name correctly.





I think this one arose because I approached a roundabout, which was clear, so I entered it completely unhindered and took the first exit which required a gentle LH turn. I retained 4th gear for this, but after leaving the roundabout I said to him that perhaps he thought 3rd gear should have been used. He said 3rd gear should have been used as I was now causing the engine to labour. Bear in mind that this was an easy LH turn, so our speed was about 25 mph and we were still in a 30 mph limit, so there was no scope for acceleration. Also the car is a 406 HDi which seems quite happy at lowish engine speeds so long as you confine yourself to gentle use of the throttle and small throttle openings. The engine was not labouring, it was pulling gently. Labouring an engine is where you are asking it to pull too hard at low speeds, and this was not such a case. The engine certainly didn't over rev., and no sir, there was no gear change on the roundabout!





He seemed to think I should have slowed down, and perhaps changed directly from 4th to 2nd gear and gone straight into the RB. I saw the large van already on the RB and judged that there was not comfortable time for me to get in ahead of him, so I held back and went in after him. I saw no other respectable option. The lane choice was OK, RH lane on approach, with the 3rd exit in mind.



Yes I did that, and I felt all was in order in that respect.



Yes I reckon the approach speed was appropriate, and I entered the RB after the large van. There were no other road users in the vicinity, and I felt it was all quite normal.



I do that as a matter of course, based on my aim of ensuring maximum harmony and minimum hassle in my travels. In fact the hassle factor is almost invariably zero, I'm happy to say.





Indeed we do, and being human beings rather than machines, this is inevitable. It might even be a good thing to have these differences. If we were all the same how would we learn from each other?

I've had plenty of time to get lazy and acquire bad habits, and I'm sure I can rightly be criticised for some of that. On the other hand I would venture to suggest that my continuing interest in driving has kept these bad habits reasonably under control, and prevented them from having an adverse impact on my overall performance.





Yes, I admit I did feel nervous, wondering what sort of judgement was about to be made.



In this context there has been a new development. This evening I had a telephone call from the Training Officer of the IAM Scarborough Group. He is quite concerned about what happened on Tuesday afternoon and very anxious to see what can be done to get things back on the rails. At the moment I am going to have a little breathing space and then we will arrange to have a run out together with him as Observer. I am quite happy to co-operate with this attempt at reconciliation so we'll see what happens. I have also agreed to attend the two classroom sessions planned for 8 and 22 March. In any event I'll renew my acquaintance with Roadcraft, and have a general review of things.



...and the IAM is entirely right to look for those qualities, and they are the very qualities I have sought to enhance, particularly during the past few years.

As for COAST - well there was a time when I used to ge a bit fed up of Vrenchen going on about that, but when the meaning was explained I accepted just how good it was as a little framework to build on. I was also relieved to find that it had in effect already been incorporated into my style, so there was no problem taking that on board.

Anyhow, thanks again IG for all your helpful comments, and my apologies to you for the delay in replying.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

What, like...

"Right! That's it! I've had enough!

I'm going to give you a damn good thrashing!"

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

IG and everyone - I have replied at last to IG's very detailed post so there may be something of interest there.

As for closing this topic, I just didn't want it going on fruitlessly and causing undue distractions from other matters.

I'm happy to leave it to Paul to call a halt when that seems appropriate.

As for IG's kind thoughts about possible assessment drives, well that's a very welcome prospect and I would really like that if anyone has the time and inclination. You all know where to find me.

If I may say so, this is a very good site Paul, and I wish you every success with what you're trying to do.

Take care and best wishes all,
Dave.

Yep - Heard it the other day on the Johny Walker (Wogan stand in) breakfast show ...

It really [i] really [/i[ amused me....

And my own car ? I call her "Silkworm"

The works car? "Tiddly Pom" after a race horse I "£knew."...

My bikes? One is called "Endeavour" (affter Morse ) .. another is " Watson" and my most evil bike?

Why "Moriarty" of course



Dave - shall reply to you later.. There are one or two issues re the Observer which I think needd addressing . In short - think you got "Mr IAM the Observer - therefore IAM!"

But gotta go for mo' Will catch you later and have some CW "goodies "which think our pedal pushers and lurks will enjoy to post too....

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Not likely anytime soon. Actually I think it's a great thread. I also think the IAM is missing too many opportunities - and the reasons are right here.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's a shame really that from my own general observations and readings from this site that the majority of people who go in for the IAM are already good, competant motorists. For real road safety improvements the target should be the vastly underskilled and those with very low confidence. However I very much doubt that they would come forward for fear that the IAM are expecting perfections which is proberbly un-obtainable for the really dangerous drivers.

Basically what I'm saying is that surely it would be better to try and make a very poor driver competant and safe, then trying to make a good driver perfect? Maybe I've got it all wrong, but it seems to me that attitutes, observation and hazard awareness are more important then getting hung up and aiming for perfection on some aspects that aren't of critical importance.