Safe Speed Forums

You don't know now. You don't know which roads have mobile speed enforcement. You don't know whether Gatsos have film in them, or at what level the threshold is set. And there are plenty of roads where the speed limit is never enforced at all.

Speed limits can't be enforced everywhere, all the time. Given that, I'd prefer them to be enforced where and when exceeding them was most dangerous, not where it was easiest to do.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Twister Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:50 pm


And these are the selfish NIMBYesque attitudes which will fortunately and correctly sustain the momentum for increased speed enforcement in such areas. I only hope we do away with GATSOs soon and move to SPECs or well advertised covert enforcement in these areas. Whatever it takes to keep the inconsiderate 'bully' speeder at bay.

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.

You don't know now[/quote]

I do know now! If I am within the limit, I know where I stand legally. If I'm not, its (rightfully) open season on me!

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I stole this .sig

Do you think drivers were hopelessly confused about speed enforcement in 1989?

It has always been quite clear that if you keep within the speed limit you know where you stand. If you exceed it, you may be prosecuted.

Legally, nothing has changed.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Why would you feel intimidated by people who exceed the speed limit? It's only tailgaters and aggressive drivers who intimidate -- it's perfectly possible for me to drive behind you calmly and safely until such a point as you turn off the road or a safe overtaking opportunity arises.



I'm glad you agree that closing speed is significant. Personally, I adjust my speed depending on the traffic flow -- it's perfectly easy to do. There will always be some twats in BMW's who drive at 100 mph whatever the weather, but most people manage to moderate their speed to fit in with the rest of the traffic, and yet make good progress at the same time.



So now, having never witnessed my driving, you are assuming that I tailgate in the fast lane? That behaviour has nothing to do with speed -- on busy motorways sometimes the fast lane is full with tailgaters all doing 60 mph. Well within the speed limit, but if one of them makes a mistake, a pile-up is the result.

It seems that you still aren't able to grasp the difference between agressive driving, and normal driving that is simply in excess of the speed limit.

Oh yes, drivers were always confused about speed enforcement. There was always a risk that you might get caught speeding. Many drivers habitually exceeded the limit because it was a small risk, but there was still confusion about what was acceptable and what was not. Recently, technology means that the risk is very high. Drivers are much less confused now, because each of them knows people who have been pinged, and drivers are well aware that, if they flaunt the law, they are for it.

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I stole this .sig

orange Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27 pm

I find it amusing when speeders arrogantly say, I travel quickly but I make sure I keep my 2 seconds distance between me and the car in front. I've no doubt you do Orange, but I infrequently meet drivers like you. I'll recognise you by your driving one day, and Ill stop and shake your hand.
Not all speeders intend to be aggressive - most are!


Why are they tailgating - to get past the car in front - to get Mr Smiths magic three minutes in the bank!

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.

With that attitude, I'd limit you on noise and pollution alone, never mind safety!



If only I could get lawbreakers to pay all my taxes, I'd be a happy man!



Of course, the mother of all evils, the speed camera is to blame! Come off it twister, if the roads are not owned by the villagers themselves, they are certainly not a public race track for the pleasure of the Top Speed crowd.

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I stole this .sig

I don't think that's the case at all. From what I've seen, they don't realise they're doing it; it's not a deliberate act, more just 'the way they drive'. The sad thing is that until they have an accident, they won't realise their mistake.

And of course in most cases, even when they do have an accident, they'll blame the driver in front for stopping too quickly, and won't even consider the fact that they were driving too close.

This is the thing that really annoys me about the current road safety policy. Speed is important, definitely -- especially in urban areas. But on motorways and dual carriageways, tailgating is far more dangerous than exceeding the speed limit.

No they're not. Except at fixed camera sites and designated mobile sites, they're less likely to be caught than they used to be. There's no direct relationship between the frequency of exceeding speed limits and the frequency of being caught.

Btw, it's "flout" in that context, not "flaunt".

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

2 : to treat contemptuously <flaunted the rules -- Louis Untermeyer>

Hm..

Although transitive sense 2 of flaunt undoubtedly arose from confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot
be called substandard

So thanks, but no thanks.

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I stole this .sig

Such an egregious exploit, this gratuitous illustration of shibboleth!

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.

I agree with this orange, most tailgaters don't realise they are doing anything potentially hazardous. It is therefore odd to assert that drivers who routinely make no attempt to obey the speed limit are any different because they aren't They are no more aware of the hazard they are presenting to themselves and others than the mindless tailgater is - they are driving in the same frame of mind - autopilot.

Given that on most of our roads the majority are already exceeding the speed limit under free flowing circumstances, that simply cannot be right can it?

Yet the least experienced drivers need the limits as they are - indeed they might already be on the high side. And our more experienced drivers need to be free to get on with the business of driving and pay full attention to hazards ahead.

This simply cannot be resolved with an emphasis on numerical speed - especially given that the speed limit is almost never the optimum speed.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm not inclined towards "political answers". My background is in engineering - not politics - and I'll give a straight answer to any question politely asked.

I don't much like the general tone of your postings. This is a serious debate about the important factors and policies that deliver road safety. You might think road safety can be reduced to measured speed, but a decade of experience suggests that this is a massive mistake.

Your tendency to personal attacks is not appropriate.

Clearly the widespread disregard for UK speed limits is nothing so simple as the wish to arrive 3 minutes earlier. Do you really think that the vast majority of our experienced drivers are so impatient as to risk crashing for the sake of a few minutes?

Yes, there are reckless speeding drivers. But the vast majority of speeding drivers are not reckless. It's the recklessness that needs to be dealt with not the speed.



The speed that I drive at is entirely outside of the important debate. Despite the fact that it is irrelevant, I will tell you that I take my personal road safety responsibilities extremely seriously. I give proper priority to risks based on three decades of experience. I spent thousands of pounds on driver training in the 1980s. I have been studying "how road safety works" for two decades.

If you can find a flaw in my work, then please point it out. It's all laid out on the web for examination. There's a promise to correct errors if any are discovered. I'll stand by that with a passion.

Finally, I don't dodge questions. If you think I missed something, then please ask me again, but please stick to discussing the issues. Personal attacks are not acceptable.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

But it's not just the count of cameras is it? It's the official approach to road safety that goes with the cameras. It's policy that changed in 1993 or so, and it's policy that's doing the damage.

Anyway the deviation from former trend is very closely correlated with camera convictions. Have you seen this:



from:
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html

It was many weeks after I had published the "fatality" page that I spotted this close correlation - so don't go accusing me of bending the data to fit a preconception. (not that you would, of course... )

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'd be very interested to see it. Neither the Police nor the camera partnerships are routinely publishing speed survey data. It'd be interesting to see M6 toll speed survey data by month, by time of day, and by vehicle class. The last few times I've been "down" that way I've used the M6. I'd guess it was about February when I last drove the M6 Toll, and most of the traffic was over 100.



There's been plenty of research dating back to Soloman in 1963. The point of the research ISN'T that you can adjust speed to move along the risk curve. The point is that drivers with different skills tend to choose different speeds. Our most competent and careful drivers tend to travel rather faster than the average. More on:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speedlimits.html

Or try a Google on "85th percentile".

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

15mph differential is at around the bottom of the optimal range for typical motorway lane widths and circumstances, with 15 to 25mph differential offering minimum danger. (I expect you'll appreciate that time spent alongside is potentially dangerous, and that approaching at too high a speed increases the risk that you won't be able to slow in time if the target vehicle changes lane.)

What do you think the effect would have been if the government had explained optimal passing speeds using some of the resources wasted on "stick to the speed limit" messages? I think we might have seen a real improvement.

Very very few UK drivers have ever been told that there's an optimal passing speed.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's extremely unusual to find a dangerous 85th percentile speed.

Where they exist there's an engineering problem to be resolved.

Your reasoning is based entirely on the false assumption that the speed limit is a measure of safety.

Have you seen this:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/rules.html ?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

It's a shame the safety picture is so very different - No speed is unsafe unless it is inappropriate for the conditions.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety