Safe Speed Forums

If you can't judge a safe and appropriate speed then you had better stick to the speed limit - thats the job the limit does best.

For those of us (i.e. the majority of drivers) who are able to determine a safe and appropriate speed, we should feel confident that the law will respect the safety of our speed choices. See this page:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/speeding.html

The bottom line is that our responsibility is clear and we DO know where we stand. We are required and expected to use speed safely.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Clearly this is piffle. Over 90% of drivers exceed the speed limit on occasion. Fewer than 5% of drivers are aggressive.

Even if you have different numbers, they are never going to fit are they?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I sometimes exceed the posted speed limit but I am not aggressive! I do not tailgate! I ride defensively, not aggressively 'Soren' but riding defensively is survival. Riding aggressively is stupid! Why must you tar us all with the same brush! I regularly see examples of very poor driving within the posted limits, but I still realise that not all car drivers have poor driving skills. So why cant you accept that not all speeders are aggressive, not all speeders tailgate?

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Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Hmm, the only attitude I have here is the entirely sensible and logical reasoning that that, if you live next to what is a major through road (with the possible exception of people who moved into their homes long before the road became as busy as it is today), you shouldn't expect peace and tranquility. Doesn't matter if you're in an urban or rural environment, if you're next to a main road you WILL have relatively high levels of traffic going by most/all of the day. Note that I'm not arguing in favour of people recklessly speeding through such a village environment, merely arguing in favour of the law abiding motorist who may well still be faced with local objection to their presence on the ground of noise, pollution, safety risk etc. etc. purely for NIMBYesque reasons. If the speed limit on any stretch of road is reduced purely as a result of some vocal locals protesting to their MP/local council, with no engineering or safety case to back up their demands, then I consider that totally unacceptable.




Did I say that? No, and I'd thank you not to put words in my mouth. Soren suggested the use of speed cameras and other automated enforcement systems release police resources which can then be used to tackle other crimes. This doesn't seem to be the case in the two police force areas I'm familiar with, and reading the comments of people elsewhere in the country suggests it isn't the case in their areas either.

And if it improves their quality of life I on the other hand consider it totally acceptable and understandable.
My empathy level diminishes however if I later learn that said locals are getting caught in speed traps set up to enforce their new limit.

True, it's understandable that people would want to try and improve the quality of their local environment, that's an idea I don't have a problem with. But I can't find it acceptable for them to get their way if in doing so it has a negative effect on the lives of far more people, especially if any of the people involved in campaigning for the reduced limit moved into their homes knowing full well what the traffic situation was like. Given that homes tend to be built next to roads, some of which will be major routes, there has to be a compromise between creating an idyllic environment for people when they're at home and not placing too many constraints on the transport system.




Maybe there should be a rule that, if any of the locals who campaigned for a reduced limit are then caught breaking it, the original limit will be immediately reinstated...

basingwerk - mate --- repeating myself from the other page on this topic --- but we seem to do fine without cameras where I am.

You get your fine's worth from a run-in with us .... acid lecture in road safety and dangers of OTT speeding.....plus a fine sometimes. Sometimes we even insist they spend night in the cells and go to court.... They really get their money's worth then. Bed and breakfast, very strong tea in the morning, cornflakes ... toast the works! What more could you wish for? Admit - the camp bed is a bit worse for wear and the toilet facilities leave a lot to be desired - but still - it is free.....

Guess what - it works! Lowest accident rate in UK, and we do catch and ticket the really bad drivers. We actually target tailgaters, lane hoggers and all those people you dislike so much.

Guess what - most people actually prefer to be copped by us in person.... they like to know what they are doing wrong and the acid tone of voice goes down really well...

What does a speed camera do? Cops some bloke and tells them about it 14 days later and they do not learn from the mistake properly. If they were zapped as a just over - where we might have used our - ahem - discretion - ahem - then it breeds the resentment and the system abuse currently employed.

That argument has never really washed with me. If the speed was OTT - ticket is issued. if there is a mitigating circumstance - such as making space for emergency vehicle (which PC Gatso can never allow for) - I let off. Same with what is easily seen as a blip which is corrected. PC Gatso cannot cope with that either.




Again there are circumstances where I would use discretion. I do not pull someone speeding up just before nor just after a speed limit change.
If person continues to drive at say 10% plus 4/5 cos I am a cuddly generous type - then I may stop to have a word in their ear, and attitude would then depend on my next action (Rude names - gets a prize - which nets us £60 - OK!) If there was a tailgater causing the problem - tailgater gets nabbed. If person was overtaking and overspeed was to "get out of danger" - again perhaps, but not necesarily, a stop and warning to get them to think how they got into situation - but not necessarily anything more unless justified. It is called fair play and if people think they have been treated fairly - then more chance of future compliance and improvement follows. Normal people (and most of us fall into this category despite the tabloid press) do react more positively to constructive criticism and advice as whole. Can honestly say on checking databanks - those people issued with stern warnings by real policeman do not seem to appear twice - whereas Gatso offences do.... In fact, the Speed Awareness courses do seem to have positive effect as well - data seems to show that the invitees have not re-offended either.



It should not be about convicting people - it should be about teaching people how to keep it safe. Why on earth should someone who overspeeds by 2mph get a criminal record and someone who pinches something get a fine and no record? The overspeed of 2mph does not cause harm. The pinching of item from a shop - is depriving the shopkkeeper of part of his earnings, his property, hikes up his insurance costs - and we all end up paying for this in form of increased costs for goods. To me - that is crime worthy of a criminal record - and not a trivial overspeed of nonsensical amounts.



Wyhy possible exception? Listen mate - every journey I make is urgent Matter of fact the Mad Lad has a green flashing light for his car - but it would not show on Gatso.

Another way in which the Speed Course /Driver Improvement Programme helps. Another reason why we should encourage all drivers to refresh skills anyway and why we should introduce periodic assessments starting with new drivers. The rest of my family take this view and I do agree with them on this. Dare say the Mad Lad will be on-line when he has finished his round of golf....



Yes - society has changed - not for the better either.

You do notice it very much in my line of job. The Mad Lad and the medics in the family have been receiving end of this as well.

Road safety issues seem to concentrate on the one aspect rather than the whole.

Manners are possibly worse in some areas because my lot are less in number than previously as well.

For record - do not condone Mr Thomas. It was drummed into me that we are "ambassadors and representatives" of the the Law and Police at all times and are expected to behave so.

However, firm believer that respect begets respect and I try to show this in my work at all times.

Yiu usually find the locals break these speed limits. Road where I live has humps. I drive over these humps at speed not registering on my speedo because they are big humps. Imaintain same slow speed in-between these humps - because it is a residential road and because it is just nonsences to speed up to each hum and slam on again. However, person who insisted on these humps wrecks exhaust and suspension on her own car and now complains about it She and thos who campaigned for this are the ones who speed up between the humps and are oblivious to the park entrance and when they reach the 30mph road at the top of the street - proceed to drive down this at 30mph and even 35 mph. past the primary school (I pulled her up about this ) She gave me a mouthful - I was not on duty so could only give her piece of my mind....



No - they only catch out one type of driver - and usually the one who blips over. Speed can increase for variety of reasons and you have to take road surface, size of wheel, tyre into account and look to see how driver corrects this. I can tell a blip for a deliberate - but then - am experienced from over 20 years...... (actually - it is more - OK OK - so I am just turned 50 - GULP! It's cool .... I can handle it .... it is just a number .....)

The camera does not catch out a really dangerous driver in his throw away car, drunk, uninsured and Mr Big of SWAG Inc!



I am? That is news to me!

Where is my manpower? Do you mean those plastic pretend ones? CSOs? Policing on the cheap?

More time?

hahahahahahahahaha!

You - er - seen - er my desk here?

And the regulars will tell you - I cannot type and my spelling is awful!

My patch is one of the only ones which has not seen decrease in trafpol presence - but then we are about only one who do not have forests of Gatsos and the boss is adamant on this... But I do know from a clooegaue in Lancs, a brother in Manchester, and a brother in London - all BiBs - that manpower is not there and traffic police are depleting. A properly trained one is now like gold dust...

Er Chumps - according to German newspaper - this motorway still has accidents . In fact - it has just suffered a spate of carnage..... again. As for its past history .... its worst recorded accident spate was in fact in the early 90s .... those Trabi drivers ...

However, the motorway has been re-engineered as well and it worth bearing in mind that the accident happened at known black spot which needs a resurface....according to the blurb in Wildy's copy of "Bild"

But you know - Hamburg-Berlin's danger rate is not due to speed but due to traffic volume. Where there is volume - there is more danger of driver error and thus more chance of a crunch - And the worst A/bahn? - It is in the Ruhr and this one was the first limited A/bahn in Germany. It is not so much down to speed as congestion ....

Not at all. My family must be the only ones who stick to a 20mph and 30mph limit around where I live. I base that on simple fact that everyboyd including the talivan twits overtake us!

I drive very fast on a track, fast on a motorway - and yes - because I am a human being - my speed can creep up a little. So long as I correct this - and do it well in advance of the talivan on the bridge - I should be OK....

In Germany, I drive accordingly and if traffic conditions dictate that I drive at 140mph - I drive at 140mph providing that I and my passengers feel comfortable with that - and that I know it is safe to do so.

By the way - entire family is petrolheaded....

[quote=soren]
The government has set the limits. I’m almost entirely happy with them. They are there for numerous reasons many of which you cant or don’t recognise because of your self centred ideology.
I’m entirely unhappy about people taking the p*ss not adhering to speed limits around me and mine. Will you slow down for me Mr Smith? The law of my country demands that you do.[/quote]

No - councils set limits and in the case of one speed limit around here - entrenched on local folklore and which happens to be true - 7 blokes over pie and a pint in the pub

A lot of these limits have been reduced - for no good reason. Dual carriageways in Lancs - for example - many 50mph ones have been slashed to 30mph - and locals were not informed about this and none can recall any accident which justifies this measure.

But these limits are enforced by scamerati with a vengeance - and this is wrong.

I almost missed replying to this important last point. Apologies.

In earlier decades we had all sorts of social changes going on - Take the growing recognitions of personal freedoms and growing illegal drug use in the 1960s as an example. We might have expected these sorts of changes to have a big effect on the roads fatality rate, but it proved to be amazingly resilient. I realise that this doesn't actualy prove anything, but it's one more snippet of evidence that something unique went wrong with our roads fatality rate in the 1990s. There's more on the arguments on the following Safe Speed page:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/stone.html

See section: "Appendix : The Fatality Gap ? might it be caused by speed cameras?"

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That's to cover those emergency trips to get the chips back to the station before they get cold!

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I stole this .sig

Paul, I agree that there was a pardigm shift in the road safety message being delivered to the public during the 90's but I don't feel we can dismiss the idea that people have changed as well.

The average Briton of today is a completely different animal to that of the 50's, 60's or 70's. He/she is more independent both in spirit and in terms of personal wealth, assertive and above all cynical.
He/she is less likely to observe simple rules that they deem to be inconvenient such as:

This checkout for baskets of 10 items or less
Please purchase your food before occupying a table

I wouldn't go so far as to say we have become a nation of belligerent know-it-alls, but changed we have - and not always for the better

And look at the demographics of the driving population, the average driver of the 1960s was most likely to be a middle-class, middle-aged male - what is it now?

My university studies unfortunately didn't go so far as time travel because the acid test would have been to conduct some sort of research in 1954, 1964, etc etc. I therefore do not assert anything about social change with relation to road safety, I do however personally believe it, along with the pressures of modern life, to be a factor as much as you believe your extensive research supports your proposals.

I agree! Education .... has changed and is more to do with massaging egos than educating... know what you mean in broadest picture - but you know me! Just got to be "awkward!" ...... and "contrary"


You ever tried to get the check out girly on the ten items till to check out your eleven items at 3 am?

I have - and despite my sexiest smile - it did not work... "It's the rules and I do not care if you have been working all night and likely to get clawed by your wife for forgetting to purchase her "saucer of milk...!"


And the second rule..... For my wife who grew up abroad - you sit down and eat and pay for it afterwards.... that is her culture..... hard to remove... But you also know my wife if you read the PH site......

And I can see where a rule about buying food before sitting down is likely to be perceived as "daft" and thus "ignored" ... what if you bought your food only to find no table and your food becomes cold, congealed and yucky.....


Nonsense rules beget contempt and that is part of problem. (Incidentally - I believe that respect and courtesy beget respect and courtesy and I do treat others with same respect as would expect to receive.... but I can well see how daft rules cause negative effects.



Hands Up! Admit!

Part of it is down to computer and microwaves. I know I have place something in microwave for all of 30 seconds and then paced the floor going "C'mon!"" and yet all calm logic if same thing is heated over the hob.....for 10 minutes or so....

And how many times have you sat for all of two seconds in growing impatience and huffs and puffs - whilst you computer calculates such and such - which prior to Windows whatever ... took HOURS!



Steady on Riggers! If e-mails on all computers in this household had not failed on us - (working onit but am medic and ....computers ??? Only happy if I know which button to press.... ) - you would have been clawed by tetchy pregnant pusscat - who is growling about males who stereotype......and she reads this as "wimmin cause accidents" Heck! she has made me type this and just do not dare disobey here I know what you mean - "CHAVS" - but try explaining to woman who has had bad day at work ("toppest scientist" hit snag in project) and then met the numpty from hell (male - of course ) on way home ....
and is pregnant and feeling it..... Not worth risking my life here




I think the "That'll Teach 'Em!" was enlightening as experiment as to how atitudes have changed.

Speed of computers, microwave, Mobile phones, have all impacted upon expectations and speed of response. Our own abilities are as they were. We have not developed in same way - human body.brain capacity and reflexes are as they were back in 1900s never mind 1950s. You use Excel and cannot remember function keys of Lotus123/supercalc etc. People get used to something and get used to "speed" and that is another part of the equation ... all this adds to opur pressures.

Learn a language? If result is not "instant" - there is sense of failure...

Learn to be surgeon, accountant, lawyer - ditto.

It is same with driving a car. The skill takes time and people rally do need to be able to stop, draw breath and acknowledge that perfection and fluency take time and patience. Perhaps that is message we need to emphasing as well.

Well yes I know that Mr Mogster, but they were just a couple of examples I plucked out of my head. Anyway, isn't the whole point of asking people to buy their food before taking a table is so that there are tables available and your food doesnt get cold and yucky.....anyway we digress.



OK so you know what I meant, but your netter half chose to take it as an insult to wimmin....which it wasn't meant to be. Because as I said at the foot of my post, I don't know if this has anything to do with it.
However, it is interesting to note that certain things have, due to PC, become virtually unsayable (even though they may be stark staringly obvious) for fear of causing offence. And indeed, perceived offenc is often used as a smoke screen to cover the real issue....but I digress into deep dark waters here so I'll return to shore where it's safe

I do that all the time where my wife is concerned In case you are wondering where I have been recently - been rescuing my wife on PH. Yup - she managed to really upset one bloke over use of mobile phone (she ticked him off and he got a bit cross) and we both wound up a young BiB badly ..... and I did tell everyone on PH that this is the site where we behave like gents ... and thus insinuated that they weren't .... How to make friends and influence people ........ (Apart from in the Nonny Forum but how do you respond to people called "Fannybots" and "W*nker" and stay keep straight face?

We both agree about things being overly PC - in fact Wildy regularly has a "go" about this over on PH...but Wildy is in one of her tetchier moods tonight. Kitten trouble .... Traffic jam from hell on way home and numpty male ..... she also had the school run this morning as well..... or rather the L-driver drove and she nearly went into labour at antics of Mumpty at school gates....summat to do with a large Honda trying to do a several point turn into a minibus and another child.....which is another example as to how standards have fallen. The selfishness displayed by these NIMBYs has to be seen to be believed. Only taking the kids by car because of objection to extortion and after just two weeks - extortion is looking preferable.... Probably will be cheaper than fixing a prang which is looking likely longer this goes on....

SafeSpeed Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:22 am

I’ll try best I can to tone down my postings

I do however struggle against some of the more interesting revelations about your psyche, Mr Smith.
As in a recent forum discussion about disabled parking


Also from the bike zone


Also from the 'claims' page



Add this to the Leader of this thread which prompted me from browsing to posting. This is a very insensitive attempt to try to blame the death of a person on a speed camera.
My retort was to highlight this insensitivity by identifying a likely opposing set of circumstances in a similarly insensitive way.

You can’t really help displaying your more unsavoury side because of your obsessive sense of your own right.

If you wish not to have 'second class citizens' posting on your form let me know, and I'll hobble off into the corner I should never have come out of.

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.

I guess the red columns could apply to the increase in numbers of big macs sold since 1993, and the increase in numbers of fatalities could be caused by people speeding to macdonalds to get there before it closes.

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Drive in haste, repent at leisure.