Safe Speed Forums

hi

i posted this in the anon section so am reposting now as a registered user.. as i said my mr is a member here and we have polarised views on some aspects ! to qualify myself i am a biker/driver with 10 yrs experience, travelling about twice the average mileage per year and including some continental motoring.. anyway here goes:

1. i don't understand why it is so difficult for drivers to keep to the legal levels required by the highway code where it is appropriate - i can do this without constantly looking at the speedometer.

i don't drive round in fear of my license and have been doing so for over 10 years without a single crash or endorsement.

2. i see the word 'education' banded about a lot on the forums as a magical answer to all evil.. take france and italy as an example.. the standard of tuition is amongst the most rigorous in europe, yet almost everyone ignores the traffic rules and regulations when they have a license! why would it not be any different here - remember you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

3. a lot of what i read by posters here simply smacks of people getting annoyed at the fact they are not allowed to break the rules of the road. i read one example about a chap exceeding the limit simply to shave time off a long journey..

thanks
jen

welcome jec or is it jen

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now retired

Ah, That might have been me, then!

The question is, why not? OK, I'm not talking about vastly increased speeds but building up a "buffer" of time during the clear patches of a long journey is a big help if you run into some kind of hold-up or you get lost or hit some poor visiility etc. You can then afford to drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions and still not be late for that appointment. Of course, the counter argument has to be that I should just leave more time in the first place - but how much? Nobody has ever been able to tell me with any degree of certainty what time I need to leave my house in Cumbria to be sure that I can get to my meeting in Birmingham for 10.00! Also, driving after too little sleep is also generally acknowledged to be a bad thing - so any extra minutes between the sheets are time well spent in my view!. Overall, I just see it as a sensible way to manage time on a long journey.

As for why we all find it so difficult to stay within the speed limit, well, I don't suppose any of us do, really. It's a bit like asking a jogger to run a bit slower, I'm sure he could but one just has a natural rhythm that feels normal. We generally feel that it's better to not become obsessive about the speedo when there are other much more worthy areas into which our attention could be chanelled. (you know, like grovelling about in the footwell looking for that last wine gum! )

I suppose we could ask the same question the other way round. Why is the "law of the land" considered such a perfect judge of appropriate speeds? After all, the current limits were set pretty arbitrarily and a long time ago. Things have moved on since then. There was a time when we had a legal system that allowed us chaps to sell our wives, to "own" other human beings just because their skin was a different colour, to send our kids down the mines and hang people for very minor crimes.

Well - we don't look at our speedos - unless if in Lancs where the slightest overspeed matters



Unfortunately - we have heard this all too often... and these are the ones who do get done as just overs - in places like Lancs, Staffs... we have come across too may in the 34/35 mph club who tell us that the Speed Course is very good - but the way they got the invites - another matter altogether. There's also the case of the bloke on 9 points after driving from South Pier to Bispham per the Blackpool Gazette of about Aug 03. His licence ws only saved by the speed course for one of the offences.

He was quoted in the paper as believing he had "nothing to fear from cameras prior to this"...

By the way - have been driving now for 29 years and no endorsements or crashes - and the one involving my wife - she was stationary - tarmac and tyres textbook distance at the time...apart from that - no crashes or endorsments in over 20 years of driving...most abroad.



The only daft French drivers live in Paris .. bit like London here being not very nice to drive in... I drive in France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland very often - and I have not had any problems. In fact - Italians are not per stereotype - they are actually rather good.... (Rome apart ..) But by and large - most abide by red lights, cross carefully at night time ambers and have given way at zebra crossings more frequently than they do here.


They do have more movement of foreigh drivers that we do - especially from the old communist countries -plus cobbled roads - all of which create different hazards to the ones in this country



Hmmm! Please say where Wildy,IG and self say we do - or Paul, Rigs, gats, Ian etc do this...

I once drove to the local hospital well above the speed limit in October 2004 ...but my wife was in labour and given her past - we had some worries over this. By the way - police were informed and did join me as we approached the hospital and I was using my green lights - and my car was more or less an ambulance on this occasion

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thanks mole,

i generally believe that speed limits have been set for a reason, usually i try to find a reason why i think a limit has been set whenever i'm driving on roads, and the majority of times i find it... usually after this i take annoyance in people who exceed the limit (often by a large margin when they're overtaking me!) and wonder just what sort of hazard perception skills they must have

i do believe slower is definitely safer and to reverse your jogger example i think it is very easy to train oneself to become accustomed to driving at lower speeds and still maintain the same level of concentration and awareness... it is just a matter of psychology and discipline - i suppose it's like quitting smoking! hard at first but then becoming easier as time goes on until you wondered why you bothered in the first place!

ultimately the government are trying to ensure maximum safety on the whole road-system by reducing the risk as much as possible within limits of practicality, which is absolutely fine in my book - just because it's irritating to some that a speed limit has been reduced should never be a reason not to perform the reduction if risk can be reduced.

i disagree with this, the tolerance is 10% + 2 before enforcement (ACPO) which is nearly a 20% lee-way at 30mph (where most speed cameras are located) - i wouldn't call that a "slight overspeed" particularly as you'd have to be approaching 40 indicated on the speedo to get that as a true speed.

i live in west lancs so i am familiar with the area.. i still don't feel worried by speed cameras.



i can't speak for the whole of france, switzerland or italy but during my recent trip i found the driving standards to be appallingly bad.. tailgating, ridiculous speeding, driving down a one way street, in bus lanes, taxi lanes, etc, etc.. one thing i found highly annoying especially on italian/french autostrade/autoroutes was tailgating at high speed in the right-hand lane)




i don't know the people you refer but none of the names sound familiar... more the 'militant' speeder who uses this site as a smokescreen..



i'm not talking about the genuine times where there is an emergency which happen reasonably once in a blue moon.. i'm talking about vanilla day in / day out regular driving where rules of the road are blatantly ignored!

You usually know why a road is 30 mph - lots of junctions and buildings.

However, we are now coming across roads which were 50 mph duals - reduced to 30 mph and no buildings or hazards or any real reason... or logic...

In fact we drive along one road which alternates quarter miles of NSL and 40 mph..(there is a pub in the 400 mph bit) - and we'd prefer the entire two miles to be 40 mph - as it just causes daftness by some.




We believe driving to COAST is safest - you usually find you are legal anyway doing this But you dirve according to the traffic conditions and within its normal flow - and you usually find again the flow is at the safest optimum speed for the conditions and again usually compliant to the road's limit.

I am not seeing that many drivers blatting past me at twice any speed limit - or violently in excess to be honest - and my commute from my home here in Cumbria is in the region of 60 miles or so each way.



It's still called developing COAST skills - and you said earlier



Yet you seem to be saying that you agree that education is a key







fails because it focuses on one little piece of the jigsaw and not the how picture.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

But thats the problem. Speed limits in the last ten or so years have been slashed in a totally inconsistent manner. This is due to the fact that local councils now have more control over speed limits than before and can use ever more unreasonable excuses.

Speed limits used to be set around what was generally considered a maximum safe speed for clear conditions - ie. selecting a speed at which you can stop in time in case anything happened ahead and taking into account other conditions. Therefore there used to be less of a problem with speeding. But now thats not the case.

Welcome Jec.


Not necessarily. The tolerance of speedos can legally be down to nil (truer for sportier cars). Also, drivers have been prosecuted at a recorded 34 in a 30 (by a Truvelo local to me) and a recorded 76 on a motorway (70 limit); these recorded figures would of course do not reflect equipment tolerance and error.

I think I know who your "mr" is

I think you should be worried.... Know of one girl who got copped going in and out of Blackpool about three weeks ago. She also thought she had nothing to worry about as "she knew about the problem." She still got caught out though...

As said - Blackpool Gazetted did report of one chap pinged 4 times at a steady cruise of 33/34 mph along the sea front. This ain't 1-0% +2 = 35 mph either.


Thye did change to include up to 10% +5 across the speed bpards - btiu we are still hearing of lower speeds getting invites to the course to make up numbers if the blatters were above threshold

Ironically - tis the blatters who need the course




Hmmm! Still not come across this. Most overtake us on the left overtaking lane. Never seen anyone - apart from Johnny English drive down a one way.... and taxis use the same road space normally as other cars ...

By the way - like here thye have bus lane cams - so your blatters in the bus lane would probably have picked up a fine. I believe Paris is more or less "vigilante on this - as Milan



Well - I've been a member here from the start as has IG and my wife usually gasbags on PH. But we do not speed - but talk about road safety such as COAST - features in Cylce Craft, Road Craft, The Highway Code - which I think you should re-read

Perhaps you would like to explain to us how you use COAST, LLOKOUT and POWER and how often you re-read the Highway Code and Road Craft

Plus - we have already provided tangible proof that COAST is taught formally by both Lancashire and Staffordshire Speed Awareness courses -

I do not know who the hell you mean of the militant speeder who uses this site as a smokescreen - kindly explain.



But we still had a bloke prosecuted for taking his wife to the hospital in similare circumstances soon after I had to do so. Difference was - I knew I was gonna have problems when she went into labour - and I also knew she'd be early - she's never gone to time...but of course babies seem to make these decisions... and I alerted for backup in case I ended up delivering at the roadside. (Am medic ... assisted in training - I specialise in something else... )

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

i haven't time to reply to all the points now (i will), but i don't bother with driving acronyms as driving is to me a somewhat subconcious skill, i look, process, and act just as easily as writing my name with a pen.

i drive to the hazards and conditions of the road within the speed limit making sure i can stop within the space i know i have in front of me for the speed i am travelling, making sure i know that space is guaranteed as
much as reasonably possible with swift and effective all round observation.

Really? Do you know - heard your last comment all too often during my career.

"I know it all - my skills are so natural to me - I don't have to think...

They are usually found sobbing after they caused an accident - and even then they'll deny it was down to them - the other guy -0 yeah he was going too fast ....

They forget one thing - we have suich good forensics not - we can even discover if or how hard a brake pedal was pressed beffore a collision...

Why else do you think we close off the road after any "nasty?"



Um - you still sure you'll never fall foul of a speed cam in Lancs. Or even cause an accident through complacency?

Sound like the ideal candidate to me...



{Opinion based on careeer spanning over 20 years - a sizable chunk of it in Traffic )






Glad to hear that - but you still come across as having plenty to learn - like mosis.


But I would bet you could not tell me the "thinking" distance or even the stopping distance without looking it up
Funny - he shuts up for a while - and we have another complacent case straight away .... ....

Sure you never go over that limit... just like him ... welll... well.


Almost all the people pinged thought they never went over the limits as welll

Most of the ones we nab on a certain road here also thought they were not speeding - their lack of COAST .... they missed the speed lolly ... - but they never "speed" otherwise....

Only the lads had observed them all a few times before when he did an audit of the road prior to our decision to show some "muslce" on it. We had copmplaints over the road.. now they are complaining that "we have nothing better to do... and of the people nabbed .. -worryingly - some of those who complained in the first place .. as per usual....

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Hi Jec,

Virtually no-one on this forum is a speed-demon, and the vast majority are safe, responsible drivers with a genuine interest in road safety.

All that distinguishes users of this forum from other groups is that this group believes that safe steady progress can be made without multiplying journey times by crawling along in 3rd gear.

I appreciate what you're saying about speed limits being set for a reason, but most here have dumped that idea because of their one-size-fits-all nature.

Here we have 20mph, 30mph, 40mph, 50mph, NSL and 70mph. Fenced off dual carriage ways with slip road junctions are often limited to 30mph simply because they pass through towns. The fact that few vehicles join the road from a standing start and that pedestrians are kept off by fencing is irrelevant.

3 lanes of Motorway are limited to 70mph in rush hour same as they're limited to 70mph at 3am when they're empty, and 7am on a sunny Sunday morning in summer whilst equally empty.

You mentioned France where they have different limits in wet and dry conditions, because cars stop shorter in the dry and visibility is better whilst the opposite is true in the wet.

In the UK we have single track country back roads with 4-5ft high grass verges up each side blocking views round corners, yet these are limited to NSL. Wet or dry, this is lethal. We have 'THINK!' radio advertisements about rural roads in Aberdeenshire right now passing the message that over half of all road deaths in the region occur on these rural roads.

Fine, can't argue with that, but all of these accidents take place within the prescribed speed limit, yet drivers still lose control and crash.

It doesn't take long to realise that speed limits are rarely optimal for any given road or condition, and thus most members of this group do not rank a speed limit as a high priority when talking in terms of safety.

Whilst you may read lots of cases where members of this group wish to travel faster than the speed limit on empty dualers and motorways, what you will read much less of is the fact that most, if not all members of this group are just as quick to back off the throttle for a whole world of reasons, when many sticking to the speed limit plow straight on into trouble (but within the speed limit).

Stick around though Jec, and welcome once again

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Assuming the limit is reasonably signed, I don't think it is difficult either - but the only reason given for doing so, in the end, seems to be that it's the law. This contrasts with not driving in a dangerous manner - again this is not difficult to avoid, but there is clear justification for not driving dangerously that does not involve what 'the law' says.

There is an argument to be made that one should, in a democratic society with laws enacted theoretically through the will of the people that one should obey laws that one disagrees with and work to change them from within, for otherwise you are violating the social contract. I personally disagree with this (otherwise I would be being extremely hypocritical by speeding), but it is a very long ethical/moral debate that also happens to be quite polarising...

I believe the difference is that most people here advocate continuous training through your entire driving career, from your first bike through to your L test, a few advanced qualifications and finally how not to mow down too many pedestrians with your mobility scooter.

I'm not really sure what a 'speed demon' is....presumably some sort of boy racer?

What I resent about speed limits is that they are a blunt mechanism for attempting to increase road safety.

They fall straight out of the 'something must be done book'

I was driving along a major motorway yesterday in a brand new car at 100mph, I was following all the rules of the road (except the obvious), the traffic was moving well and freely and in my opinion the whole situation was safe.

That is why I struggle with the whole speed limit issue...there were hundreds of drivers around me all exceeding the limit but all selecting an appropriate speed for themselves, the conditions and their vehicles and the whole things worked well. Basically individuals making informed choices resulting in a safe system. If you constrain those individuals by forcing them to abide by an 'artificial' limit then you are altering their natural state and ........ how do you know what the side effects will be?

IMHO those who have a desire for (out of town) limits are highly mis trustful of both their skills and capability and those of others. Its all got very little to do with safety and more to do with your 'political' point of view. Do you trust the individual or do you have to control the individual?

I believe there is some research on this....mcpherson? theory x and theory y?

No disrespect to you Jen, but I find it quite hard to believe that you have been riding motorcycles for 10 years and have never once had an accident.

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Hi

You really have got the wrong end of the stick.

We are not obsessed with being allowed to drive at any speed we please. We are outraged because government policy has focussed on the single issue of speed to the detriment of driving standards in general.

How many times do you hear someone say "but I wasn't speeding" after having an accident? It's become the only thing which many drivers consider as a yardstick for good driving.

What we are realy bothered about is, road safety policy is killing us.

Hello jec, welcome to the 'wonderful world of safespeed'.
I'm an OAP, have been driving since 1960, have no points and 2 full preferred no-claims bonusses. I drive c.25,000 miles per annum.
My take on speed cameras and the virtually zero-tolerance to any driving in excess of the limit is based on common sense and not on political dogma.
We used to have mainly meaningful limits which could be respected because the reasons for them were obvious.
Now we have limits for no apparent reason in many places, enforced by spiteful cameras which are clearly positioned to maximise revenue whilst making a zero contribution to real road safety.
Driving in excess of the speed limit is known to be a factor in only around 5% of all accidents, but currently electronic enforcement is the main weapon in road safety to the detriment of all other methods of accident prevention, especially as cameras have provided a perception that fewer manned police patrols are now necessary to catch the other 95% of accident causation not speed limit associated. Is that good? I think not.
Personally I don't care whether they have more, less or the same number of cameras. There are many ways of avoiding detection, conviction and disqualification if this is a problem to the individual. I won't go into them here and now, but it is not difficult.
My main objection to the speed camera system is with the way in which it all operates. If alleged to have committed a minor traffic offence you are now required to either confess by self-incrimination, name someone who will confess, or be found guilty of failing to confess. This, in my humble opinion, is contrary to my rights as an Englishman in that I should not be required to provide the evidence to convict me when no other evidence confirming my guilt exists.
Cameras will not and cannot improve road safety, they do infringe my constitutional rights, they do collect cash for the revenue, they are driving a wedge between public and police, they are causing ordinary people to lose their jobs for a few very minor errors in driving and they are have allowed a lot of unaccountable quangos to spring up in the guise of 'Safety Camera Pratnerships'.
It's nothing to do with road safety, it's purely politics and cash.
What more is there to say?

It's not as easy as you might think - in fact ensuring that you always know what the speed limit is and are never more than a couple of mph above it takes a considerable amount of concentration. IAM observers report that one of the biggest problems they have with new associates is getting them firstly to spot all the speed limits and then adhere to them.

Most speed limits are fairly obvious, but a surprising number aren't. I don't know whether you remember the case of a middle-aged Lancashire nurse a few years ago who received 11 tickets in 14 days from a camera because the highway authority had reduced the speed limit but erected no signs to inform drivers of that fact.

Even if you think you know the limit, if you're in an unfamiliar area and spot a camera, it's hardly surprising that many drivers, just to be on the safe side, brake to well below what the limit actually is.

And, regardless of how easy it is to adhere closely to limits, the fact is that the majority of drivers don't, yet they're not constantly causing carnage on the roads. Forcing them to divert some of their attention resources from general observation to strict speed limit compliance is likely to make them less safe, not more.

This is not to say there should be no speed limits, or that they should not be enforced, but using them to prosecute people who are only marginally over the limit and otherwise causing no danger is oppressive and counter-productive. A speed limit is a means of prosecuting unsafe drivers, not a definition of what is safe and what is unsafe.


I have had no convictions for 25 years and don't drive around in constant fear of losing my licence either, but that doesn't mean I think the current trends in speed enforcement are either reasonable or effective.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

why is that so hard to believe?! i'm an all year rider and ride defensively at all times and am never tempted to "hoon" about like i see so many riders doing particularly in the summer - hence no crashes.

i started on a honda cg125, moved up to a honda cb400, then onto a vfr750, and now on a 2002 vfr800 VTEC