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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 19:15 
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jec wrote:
where do you draw the line?


OK, what is the maximum speed you think a reasonably experienced driver in a good car can do on a straight motorway in good conditions (good visibility, light traffic etc) before they become an unacceptable risk to themselves and others? And why?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 19:40 
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camera operator wrote:
smeggy wrote:
jec wrote:
by whom, the SCP vans or actual traffic cops?

Does it matter?


it does smeggy

I would be most interested to know why it matters.

The answer: pulled by traffic cops!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 19:46 
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If the arguement against raising the motorway speed limit to 80mph is because it will cause increased fuel consumption and emissions, surely engine size should be restricted substantially?

I don't actually think engine size should be restricted, but in order for the environmental and conservation of fossil fuels arguement to be valid it must be restricted.

How can the government not raise a poorly respected motorway speed limit due to environmental reasons, when it allows 6 litre gass-guzzling 4x4s to be sold and used without restriction?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 19:54 
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T2006 wrote:
If the arguement against raising the motorway speed limit to 80mph is because it will cause increased fuel consumption and emissions,

How about returning the DCs back to 60mph? 30mph is not an efficient speed


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 19:58 
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smeggy wrote:
camera operator wrote:
smeggy wrote:
jec wrote:
by whom, the SCP vans or actual traffic cops?

Does it matter?


it does smeggy

I would be most interested to know why it matters.

The answer: pulled by traffic cops!


with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked, one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 20:02 
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camera operator wrote:

with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked, one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)


I know some talivans operate at a 10% + 4mph basis


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 20:03 
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camera operator wrote:
with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked, one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)

:lol:

You are seriously telling me drivers can get fine/points for 1mph over? (assuming the driver had got out the wrong side of bed on that day)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 21:24 
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camera operator wrote:
smeggy wrote:
camera operator wrote:
smeggy wrote:
jec wrote:
by whom, the SCP vans or actual traffic cops?

Does it matter?


it does smeggy

I would be most interested to know why it matters.

The answer: pulled by traffic cops!


with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked,


No speedo ist that accurate - even GPS has a 10 metre differential :roll:

Most :bib: apply letter of common sense .. even IG does this :lol: Und his Papa before him - my Onkel. :wink: Und all the :bib: in family - we have socialised with their ::bib: pals und they all are blessed with some common sense und professionalism .

Und we donot t always get 10% + 2 - Lancs has history und our sub-marinated pal has done at 44 mph in a 40 mph. He denied it of course... but the gent who gave the little salute to the van at 20 mph ... was a 44 mph victim ... und he was still a bit cross. :wink: apparently ... :wink:

Quote:
one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)


I think you are S Yorks from your posts . so ..... I suspect this ist lieber Strassen :bib: He got very cross with me once over on PH...

It was about my comment over the episode of Traffic Cops und the cheesy one with the dyed blond hair, fake tan und dangly ear-ring und a medallion :shock: :shock: .. with his dark haired partners - und I was humming the tune to Starsky und Hutch for longest time after that....but the chap got into right ol' lather over it all... und he told me he did not like chatty sassy wild felines either :rotfl: I think he was the blond chap reaaly ( I kept digging - he kept getting cross :lol: ) - he kept denying this over und over ... und I was a bit - um :oops: - relentless in my bantering with him... :lol: over this ... but if got a lot of laughs over the road from the regulars in the "snug" :wink:

I shall not be driving in S Yorks - but ist not a pretty place anyway - all dour grimness .. I like scenic chocolate boxes for my holidays :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 21:50 
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jec wrote:
yes, i know _why_ the speed limit was introduced (you failed to read my post) - i'm simply saying i believe it _stuck_ because of the oil crisis in the 70s.





Nein - Barbara Castle made this law before oil crisis. As I remember - it became a FIFTY MILE LIMIT in UK during the the three day week. I remember this because the rationing meant we ended up prolonging a holiday here in UK . I may have been just a little girl at time - but when you end up having more time off school und a longer holiday "abroad" because of this (und have always been bit of avid newreader - apparently taught self to read und amused the grown -up with my reported legendary ability to read newspapers at age three - I do not rememebr - cannot remember not being able to read really ... ) - but have good memory - a photographic one as well. Und I do remember this - und I remember my Papa cursing because he saw :bib: on motorway und thought he was in bother at time too as he was driving above 50 mph.

But these stick in mind.


Quote:
it's not economical to drive faster than 70, not by any means! I don't know of any vehicle that becomes more economical at 80-90-100mph than it is at 70mph. i get about 50mpg out of my VW diesel at 70, when i tried driving a long motorway journey at as close to 60 as possible i got an extra 70 miles out of the tank!


It depend how well services und tuned your engine ist. :wink:

We get a lot of extra mile out of the Jags und the older Classics we own. But we do find a cruise at higher speed ist giving us just as much value for our money as a slower speed.

Und we once experimented - Mad Doc has pal. He had sister up in Northern Germany on Uni course. He took a then 12 year old Wolseley 1800 (Ist the stubby rear und the nice grill... the Morris was the drab ugly one und the Austin had the cute little tails :wink:)

Anyway - this car drove at highest speed of 80 mph average from the Hamburg area - fully laden on one tank of petrol to the UK - und needed petrol in Felixtowe where it docked.

An Austin Maxi (1750 engine) also fully laden und three years younger did the same trip one year later from Bremerhaven at lower speed of 70 mph und needed a top up before the ferry in Rotterdam.

Both cars had been serviced und tuned by this person who ist also a surgeon now prior to these trips.

Und by the way - his Mama died aged 95 years. On day of her funeral - he receive speeding tickets.... for 34 mph in 30 mph zone.... und 85 mph on motorway.

She did not die from car accident. His poor Mama caught cold und it became serious bronchitis - und she just gave up... :cry: So sudden.. but this ist what happen witht he very old ...

But at least she kept full faculties to the end und grew old most "gracefully" :wink: und she always did enjoy her driving. :wink:

You were saying about the elderly .... :wink:

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UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
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Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 21:57 
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Und by the way - do not know where you drive in Italy - but I have not seen any drivers tonning it on the autostrade - nor in France. They all drive very courteously on whole - und in Germany - ist considered baddest of manners to hog outer lane.. ist :nono: not done. You assist the overtakes at all times. :wink:

Ist COAST in action.. ISt MSM in action Ist LOOKOUT in action :wink:

Ach und by the way - have driven from Dolomiti to Heel un Toes und back und all over the Hexagon und Austria, Germany, Hungary, Spain und Switzerland.. und have ridden bikes (motor und bicycle) in these und other places too.

Never seen people driving well over 80 mph und even in Germany - they tend to feel at comfiest at 85-90 mph on unlimited.

Also - Germany ist where greenery start.. und they have fastest cars und most sensible attitudes to speed too :wink:

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 22:38 
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In a quieter moment, JEC wrote:
2. i see the word 'education' banded about a lot on the forums as a magical answer to all evil.. take france and italy as an example.. the standard of tuition is amongst the most rigorous in europe, yet almost everyone ignores the traffic rules and regulations when they have a license! why would it not be any different here - remember you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

Sorry to but in, JEC, but I hope I addressed your point above in my post, and wondered if you would comment. It's back here.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 22:49 
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WildCat wrote:
They all drive very courteously on whole - und in Germany - ist considered baddest of manners to hog outer lane.. ist :nono: not done. You assist the overtakes at all times. :wink:


So I wonder why we British are so bloody minded about lane discipline :roll: :banghead: I wonder what would happen if a suitable stretch of motorway could be found along which to trial, if not an unlimited speed limit, a much elevated one, say 100mph.
In one stroke we'd remove one of the reasons why folks believe they have the right to stay in one lane, i.e. nobody should be going faster than 70mph :roll: Thus, if they were then seen blocking a lane with a car behind there could be little doubt that they were at fault.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 23:18 
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T2006 wrote:
camera operator wrote:

with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked, one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)


I know some talivans operate at a 10% + 4mph basis


10% + 4 is more than enough to prevent errors from blipping, there really can be no complaints if you are booked for this, as it would give:

37 in a 30
48 in a 40
59 in a 50
70 in a 60
81 in a 70

i don't see the problem with this - in effect it increases the speed limit (indicated) by 10mph (my car is doing just over 37 while indicating 40 on the speedo according to GPS)

i stand by my belief that most people who want the 80 limit would ignore i then complain vociferously if they were caught exceeding the limit. i have no scientific backup for this i'll admit, but neither do proponents for the higher limit as to my knowledge there's never been a speed limit higher than 70mph for the last 40 years in the UK to glean evidence of driver behaviour.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 23:25 
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Pete317 wrote:
jec wrote:
where do you draw the line?


OK, what is the maximum speed you think a reasonably experienced driver in a good car can do on a straight motorway in good conditions (good visibility, light traffic etc) before they become an unacceptable risk to themselves and others? And why?


i don't know. you could quite safely do 120-130 on some motorways in those conditions.

however, very few motorways exhibit your conditions except at night when the accident risk is higher and the biggest problem is _trusting_ drivers to use discretion to use that speed responsibily. with the decline in driving standards and the very real risk of those least qualified to use the speed correctly being the ones who will drive the fastest, i think the accident rate would only go up.

what is the answer? variable speed limits? how do we ensure people will adhere to those limits? will it be ok to ignore those as well just because you think it's safe and then complain about getting booked?

it's a vicious circle..


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 23:29 
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In fairness to Jec, I don't think she ever said she did her 70 in any particular lane! Obviously, I'd hope it was always the furthest available one to the left! I wonder whether I implied that she stuck in the midle lane with my "mobile chicaine" comment. If I did, that was not the intention. The comment was meant to suggest tha twhatever lane she was in (OK, outside excepted!), she'd be travelling slower than the vast majority of cars and would therefore get overtaken a lot.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 23:30 
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T2006 wrote:

I know some talivans operate at a 10% + 4mph basis


Well that sounds like a better deal than 10% +2! I shall make sure I take my business there in future!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 23:48 
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camera operator wrote:
with us you have that 10% + 2, a mobile cop can stop you at 71mph, you give attitude you are booked, one of the traf pol with us hates the flirty women type so they always gets it (but he bats for the other side)


I assume that's a light-hearted comment, right?

I've never come across anyone who's been done by a trafpol for such a small margin over the limit! To be honest, in my wild and misspent youth, I suffered a number of times at the hands of trafpols - all richly deserved and "fair cops" 50 in a 30 :oops: 94 on the m/way and over the "ton" once (which got me a short ban). Had a few other "incidences" too where I just got told off. In all cases, however, they stopped me, told me what (and much more importantly WHY) I was a naughty boy and (and here's the point) STOPPED IT HAPPENING THEN AND THERE. As a result, I have a reasonable respect for trafpols. (note, that's trafpols rather than the law they're stuck with enforcing!)

Anyway, now I'm a reformed character, have paid my debt to society and am "going straight"- (ish), I periodically pass trafpols at an indicated 80 and they don't bother me. Likewise, I often get passed by them doing that (and more!) with no lights or sirens and we happily co-exist. I like to think that it's them using their discretion and evaluating my "crime" in the context of the conditions prevelant at the time.

Unfortunately the T%&T in the scamera van that got my wife at 11.00 on a dry sunny morning going down the M6 at Shap with no traffic to speak of and then posted her a demand for money a week or so later is quite obviously the spawn of Satan himself! Respect? Don't make me laugh! did he prevent the "crime" from taking place? Save the lives of the other road users that day? Point out the error of her ways? Did he stuff-as-like! He has, however, taught her to keep an eye on the bridges in future!

Come on! Jsut about every scamera partnership in the land claims great reductions in KSIs but nationally the figures barely change! We recently came bottom of the class in Europe for having made the smallest reduction in KSIs of any of the countries involved.

DOESN'T THAT TELL YOU SOMETHING??????


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 00:15 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I think the crux of this matter, is JEC cannot understand why all people do not drive like JEC! :lol:

You really have to remember that the driving test in this country allows drivers to obtain a license, to drive 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, in rain, sleet, snow, fog, ice, light, dark, wind, hail, on motorways, rural roads, urban roads, mountain passes and "Lincolnshire flat for 20 miles" roads - often without any previous experience of many of the above whatsoever.

A typical example was my brother, a Star Rider scheme instructor at the time, came to visit me at college in Blackpool, and was taken completely by surprise by a tram where they share the road by the Metropol Hotel!!

JEC's aproach would seem to be "what a plonker" instead of accepting that not everyone has seen a tram coming towards them in the middle of the road - especially if you live in Cumbria!! :lol: This is why education is so important.

Perhaps like myself, JEC employed COAST skills without knowing they had a name - but again, many drivers need to be reminded and taught these skills - and taught to PRACTICE them. Not all drivers are the same - as JEC has realised!

Unfortunately, imposing speed limits to make roads safer these day, is a bit like keeping your children indoors, rather than teaching them to treat the roads and the traffic on them with respect. The end result is one day they slip out and get injured, because they didn't know what they should be doing! :oops: This is why I use the word education so often.

Yesterday I emailed Radio Cumbria about the 4x4 drivers who were making fools of themselves in the deep snow we have had. My comments were read out on air, and invoked a storm of protests from drivers who said they COULD drive in snow - but this picture from the BBC site showed a typical example of a driver who thought ALL WHEEL drive would be the answer to his problems.
Image
Other drivers contacted the station to say they AGREED with my observations, and I challenged the BEEB's Cumbria station to do something about it.
Today, they had an off road driving centre giving advice on driving 4x4's in the snow and ice - and how to make best use of the features available!

This should be done BEFORE the snow, on a national basis!! :idea:

Image
In the view above, the straight road, with central median near the filling station and protected turning lanes is 40 mph.
It used to be NSL with three lanes.
The side road which leads off left, just ahead of the furthest car, is 8-10 feet wide, and twists and turns between trees and bushes, limiting visibility to just a few yards. Its limit is NSL!.

What on earth were they thinking of!!
It's no wonder drivers have no respect for speed limits! :oops:


interesting points raised here, i do accept your point about the value of education - my point is that the ones who drive the most dangerously possibly tend towards a less than respectable character - joyriders, car thieves, general scumbage etc.. granted there will possibly be a smaller proportion of respectable people in there as well but the thing is these people generally won't listen in the first place - an interesting read may be Bike magazine doing a feature on 3 speeders who took a advanced course - the 'lad' of the group didn't want to know and thought he was better than everyone. i suggest this happens all over the place and is probably the highest risk crash group who all the education in the world won't make a blind bit of difference!

i think speed cameras are somewhat of an 'education' to these sort of drivers who know they are going to lose their licence! the counter-argument to this is "but they will then drive uninsured, etc" but does anyone actually have any proof/figures that uninsured driver convictions are decreasing, or is it something we all assume 'must' be a side effect of speed camera policy?

regarding your speed limits, i know the road i think.. A590 in Cumbria, looks like the Ings road, been up there many a time on my bike. as a counter point to the NSL 'madness' road, surely this is what you are striving for, a road which allows people to select a safe speed for the conditions with relatively little risk of enforcement? is it even possible to achieve 60mph there?

while straight roads generally offer the greatest visibiility, the risk associated with driving fast can still be very great and often not immediately apparent.. they possibly reduced the limit there due to the risk of people rearending those turning into the petrol station and also the crossroads. further on the road turns back into NSL in both directions doesn't it where there are fewer hazards? (eastbound - dual carriageway? and then westbound the hilly section)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 00:19 
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jec wrote:
i don't see the problem with this - in effect it increases the speed limit (indicated) by 10mph (my car is doing just over 37 while indicating 40 on the speedo according to GPS)


No, thats not correct. SCPs are only one aspect of enforcement, just becuase the occasional SCP assume this margin of 10% + 4mph, does not the police will or indeed other SCPs.

Speed limits only mean something if they are appropriately set.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 00:39 
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as far as i am aware the minimum which any SCP will enforce is 10% + 2

police can enforce at anything they want but as i hear so often on this site they can use discretion and are the answer to all problems!

so which is it to be, a policeman who can possibly enforce at 1mph over or a SCP van that will possibly do you at the minimum of 5mph over? (for a 20/30 limit)

you would be taking just as much of a chance driving at say 33mph and risk a traffic policeman stop you than you are at 35mph and risking a safety camera NIP, except that in the majority of cases you know where the cameras are located!


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