Safe Speed Forums

See this: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/roa ... doc_en.pdf

I'm looking at it now. How VERY VERY strange that the UK strategy (near the end) doesn't mention speed enforcement.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Just read it too. Evrything it says is the complete opposite from the current party line anmd what we see



What ?

And look at Germany:



That's the underlying Safe Speed message, in action, and delivering some of the biggest road safety improvements in Europe.

See also: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/germany.html

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Devils advocate: France also seem to be doing well but they have a culture of cracking down on speeders.

P.S. Sorry for being a pedant but in your "Germany" thread you should use "alternative" not "alternate" when you ask "Of course, the alternate question is: "What are they doing right in Germany?" ".

France's first speed cameras were installed in November 2003. Their fatality figures ran as follows:

2001 8,162
2002 7,655
2003 6,058
2004 5,530

So clearly the 25% reduction between 2001 and 2003 cannot be attributed to cameras. The 9% reduction from 2003-4 could possibly have something to do with the cameras, but the very least we should do is ask why the 2004 reduction was worse than the 2003 reduction.

I think the truth is that they are mainly changing the awful drink drive culture.

The following Safe Speed page has a few details:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/france.html



Ta.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That is surprizing since, according to data published on the German site http://www.dvr.de/dvrseite.aspx?section=4&sub=1&id=740 , the UK seems to have a problem with the chance on a fatal accident for young drivers. Compared to UK average young drivers have 2.5 more chance to be killed in a fatal accident than average. There are not many countries in Europe that perform worse (D and F).

Given the similar description for Britain's strategy is (allegedly) unrepresentative - why should we think that the description of Germany's strategy should be any different?



You're very keen to point out derestricted autobahns - but you omit that 3,200km of the German autobahn network is equipped with mandatory variable speed limits, and that about half of the autobahn system is subject to speed limits imposed for environmental and/or road safety reasons.

Additionally, is it not possible that the reason the German trend is showing a sharper decline is simply due to the law of diminishing returns, and the fact that Britain has a road safety record which is historically and remains superior to that of Germany?

Interestingly, Holland (home of Home Zones, 30km/h zones, 60 km/h zones in rural areas, speed cameras hidden in wheelie bins etc.) achieved a 19% reduction in fatalities between 2001 and 2004 - better than Germany's, and beaten only by France, Luxembourg and Portugal.

For a start it makes sense. And Germany should rightly be proud of their policy and achievement. Whereas I'm not in the least little bit surprised if DfT deny thier mistakes.



You can't lie about the dangers of speed when you have derestricted Autobahns. It's not about speed limits. It's about truth and cultural values.



No. It isn't possible at all, unless you're short of brainpower or you are making excuses for policy failure. Proper performance is exponential decay of risk values which has the required amount of the law of diminishing returns built right in. And we're WAY behind target on our risk curve.



Some Dutch expert friends of mine think that the latest figures are unbelieveable. Nevertheless, there's plenty of good things about Dutch road safety - integration, Monderman and no penalty points from speed camera offences - they are not creating a nation of drivers in fear of their licences.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Safe Speed issued the following PR at 05:28 this morning:

PR292: Road Safety: we're now the poor man of Europe

news: for immediate release

New official EU road safety figures [1] show that Britain is now the 'poor man
of Europe' in terms of road death reduction. In fact we have gone from hero to
zero in about a decade.

Between 1994 and 2004 the EU 15 countries cut road deaths by 39%, with Britain
lagging behind, 13th out of 14 countries with figures available. If we had
done as well as -say- Germany, British annual road deaths would be down to
2,266 [2] instead of a frankly awful 3,368 [3]. We're over 1,000 lives a year
behind schedule. This estimate is echoed by an extrapolation of our own
earlier trend in fatality rate reduction, and is a serious failure that Safe
Speed has long been highlighting.

In the last four years (2001-2004) we have reduced road deaths by only 6%
against an EU average of 14%. We're dead last - 14th out of 14 countries (who
have figures available).

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "When will Department for Transport wake up and
admit that their policies aren't working? All their talk about road safety
targets amounts to nothing more than hot air. Lives are not being saved."

"I am absolutely certain, having spent thousands of hours examining road
safety data, that our poor performance is due to bad policy, and that the bad
policy is founded on 'speed kills' and speed cameras. There is so much more to
road safety than numerical vehicle speed."

"The knowledge and the cultural values that gave us the safest roads in the
world are being lost. We must urgently scrap speed cameras and return to
psychologically sound policies based on skills, attitudes and
responsibilities."

The vast bulk of France's creditable improvements came BEFORE the first speed
cameras were installed on French roads in November 2003. An increase in Police
Traffic Patrols and an emphasis on drunk driving are thought to be leading
contributors.

Germany's policy statement in the new report [1] specifically mentions
management of road safety culture. Safe Speed believes that road safety
culture management is the single most important road safety policy device
available.

The British policy statement does not mention speed cameras or speed
enforcement, which is strange because the average British motorist experiences
very little else from road safety policy - yet there sometimes seems to be a
speed camera on every other street.

<ends>

Notes for editors
=================

[1] The new EU report:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/roa ... doc_en.pdf

[2] (5812/9814)*3807 = 2,266

[3] 3,368 figure is the EU official GB figure and includes Northern Ireland.

[4] Figures for Belgium are not available.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

The reductions in fatalities in other countries may be down to road building programs, such as building new (safer) motorways to replace single carriageway roads.

Lo and behold, road building in Britain is seen as a bad thing by minority groups who have the biggest gobs (that the government prefer to listen to).

It does, of course, suit you to say that.



How do you account for the Netherland's more impressive reduction and their stated emphasis on speeding?



You can't lie about the dangers of speed when you have derestricted Autobahns. It's not about speed limits. It's about truth and cultural values.[/quote]

Nevertheless, speed limits are increasingly common on German autobahns - what impact do you think this has had on the numbers killed in Germany?



I'm surprised you didn't have the link to the colourful graph with "arbitrary units" on one axis to hand.....



So you're saying the Dutch are lying?!?



What impact do you think speed cameras (and covert speed cameras for that matter), 30km/h zones, 60 km/h zones, Home Zones, mandatory variable speed limits on autonelswegen etc account for the (alleged) reduction in those killed on Holland's roads?




Of course, if cameras dished out fines only and no points here, they'd be no howls of "revenue raisers".....



Indeed - this may hold particularily true in Germany where roads and autobahnen in the east are being upgraded from the sorry state the DDR left them in. Still, why consider that when we can attribute it to the lack of speed cameras?

French TV runs a driving tips and advice slot EVERY evening - 5 minutes introduced by a motoring or motorcycling personality.
The "1 for Danger, 2 for safety" message is heavily promoted (relates to road markings at the verge equivalent to our chevrons, but without the ambiguity in our signage).
Other warnings such as overtaking on the brow of a hill, or in a dip also feature - and fatality figures and causes for popular stretches of road.
Speeding in excess of the posted limit gets scant attention, but inappropriate speed (urban mainly) does.

Interesting the EU acknowledge this point:

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Interesting piece in a French news online Road Deaths Down

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

A friend of mine stated the following when I mentioned the above press release.

I’ve only ever been to France when I was young, when my father drove all the way to Italy. I can only remember the roads being empty. I was shocked to see that in 1972, 16,617 people died on the French roads. Maybe your friends where right about the introduction of English style junctions and roundabouts having a marked effect in reducing road accidents.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Pickup on the original PR has been poor, so I issued a further PR at 08:27 this morning:

PR293: The poor man of Europe: Further information

Notes for editors:
==================

Yesterday's important Safe Speed PR concerning UK road fatalities failing to
fall making us the 'poor man of Europe' has not received the press pickup that
it deserves.

See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SafeSpeedPR/message/144

Several enquiries from journalists reveal that this may be due to limited
understanding of the meaning of the values.

FACT: The greatest purpose of road safety policy is to reduce road deaths.

FACT: We expect a constant rate of reduction in risk values expressed as a
percentage. Technically this is 'exponential decay' and has the 'law of
diminishing returns' built right in to precisely the correct degree.

FACT: The rate of reduction of risk values in the UK falls far behind that
expected, and far behind that achieved in most European countries.

FACT: With the UK's history of excellence in road safety we should still be
leading Europe not trailing behind.

FACT: The figures issued yesterday by Safe Speed are based accurately on a new
official EU report.

FACT: So far there has been no known press coverage of this new report.

FACT: Present policy inherited excellent road risk values and is failing to
improve them.

FACT: We have ongoing improvements in vehicle engineering safety, roads
engineering safety and post crash medical care. With NO intervention from
policy we would STILL expect road deaths to continue to fall. The fact that
this isn't happening is evidence of a massive policy failure making matter
worse despite the ongoing technical benefits.

FACT: The growth in traffic is nowhere near enough to account for the loss of
trends.


***

NEWS: for immediate release

Paul Smith, founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign
(www.safespeed.org.uk) said: "We have more or less the safest roads in the
world, but present policy is tending strongly to make them more dangerous.
Despite ongoing improvements in vehicle safety, road engineering safety and
post crash medical care road deaths are not falling as expected."

"We are entitled to much better policy and much better results. Over two
million speed camera fines a year are making matters worse, not better. The
only evidence that counts is road deaths. We're over 1,000 lives per year
behind schedule and I am absolutely certain that policy is to blame.

<ends>

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

yes I agree that’s what govt policy is. The minority groups are encouraged to provide a smokescreen for total lack of govt investment here.

So why the lies about investing in the highway network and even claiming that this is a priority ?

I think people are parsing that phrase incorrectly.

I don't know how clear this would be, but I think its intended to be parsed as-

As far as road infrastructure is concerned-

the priority is given to investments in the existing highway network

Eg highway investment is prioritised in improving existing roads rather than building new ones.

They may have but it is not the explanation of the sudden drop since that program on French roads dates back 15 years or so at least.

On the French site on road safety http://www.securiteroutiere.equipement.gouv.fr/ I read a presentation on exactly that problem: why were road fatalities ducking half a year before the new legislation.
It was a very honest presentation. It stated there was no explanation available.
It may be the presentation was a bit too honest because it is no longer there (at least I cannot find it anymore). Unfortunately I did not store it on my computer so I cannot even prove it has ever been there.

I believe Dominique whatshisface, the French PM has decided not to install any more "radars automatiques" (speed cameras) this year because of similar fears...

The French ones are horrible, they're more like rectangular Truvelos and flash right in your face (I don't speak from bitter experience but I've seen a video of some skateboarders setting one off in Paris )