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 Post subject: What happened here?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 00:44 
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Here are some pictures of a site where vehicles regularly leave the road, with varying degrees of severity.
Some drive away, as rebuilding the wall can be pricey - a hole like this would be £300 -£500, as it is drystone wall - a local skill.
Most find their cars are too badly damaged to drive, with damage to front and rear quarters.
The first picture shows the site.
Image

This picture shows two holes on the right, made by the same car.
Image

while this shows two other sites, which were made a few days apart.
Image

The wall on the left has been rebuilt many times, and the farmer keeps an old gate behind the wall to effect a temporary repair.
NSL applies, and most cars are heading in the same direction - towards the direction the first picture was taken from.
It's a hollow at the bottom of a downhill section of Bannerigg. So far, nobody has hit anyone coming the other way, or on the cyclepath.

On the A6, a driver ran into a party of ramblers which resulted in several fatalities in the one incident - so I dont feel it is right to be complacent over this section of road - there are frequently large parties of walkers, or cyclists on this section. Last year there were 7 accidents here which I am aware of.
Already this year there have been 4, and behind the photographers position, and over the brow of the far hill, there have been two other accidents - the one behind was a fatal.

My own view is that the road has a kink, which takes strangers by surprise, and they stab at the brakes too hard, and spin out into the wall
Image
The kink is to accommodate an additional lane up the hill, and spoils the natural line through the bend.

Anyone have any ideas on how to warn drivers of the consequences of taking too much speed into the bend?

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Last edited by Ernest Marsh on Thu Dec 06, 2007 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 02:13 
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I think there's a problem with the photos because any reasonably modern car could take that at well over 100 from what I can see of it :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 09:08 
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Hmm. I think you might be one in the wall then! :lol:

The bend IS misleading in the photo, because I could not stand in the carriageway to take it - it IS tighter than it looks, and the view across the bend too, does nothing to indicate how far right it swings.

Depending on the car, I have been able to rush through here to experiment, but anything over 50 to the stranger, could be dodgy.
My question is, what do we have available by signage, to indicate to drivers that they might be mislead, and should curb their speed?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 09:57 
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That looks dangerous to me. It looks as though the camber is all wrong at the bend from the photo.

A sign saying 'dangerous bend' would make the road planners look stupid but there should be some sort of warning.

A clue is the holes in the wall of course should make you wonder why they are there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 13:00 
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spankthecrumpet wrote:
I think there's a problem with the photos because any reasonably modern car could take that at well over 100 from what I can see of it :?


It doesn't look to me like 100 mph stuff, and I would think something a lot less would be required for safety.

Is that the road a mile or two out of Windermere, approaching from the Kendal side?

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 13:04 
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spankthecrumpet wrote:
I think there's a problem with the photos because any reasonably modern car could take that at well over 100 from what I can see of it :?

I agree, from the photos it looks like you'd barely have to move the wheel. Still, it's obviously a bit worse than that if so many people are getting caught out - although that in itself is strange as vision looks excellent through the bend. They don't seem to use them too often here but in Australia they put up (very low) advisory signs before bends.
So if you're in a 100 limit (or NSL) but there's a sharp bend then you'll see a sign on approach saying, for instance "60". Of course these speeds seem to be based on a 1960s vehicle with tyres from the same era but you soon get a feeling for the correction needed for your car.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 14:50 
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We do have the the signs, the problem is that they are everywhere, usually where they don't need to be and it's a case of crying wolf so they will be ignored.

The other thing is that this appears to be the first flat bit after a downhill for quite a while, is there any possibilty of ice collecting here and taking people by surprise?

The bottom photo also seems to have mud on it...


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 Post subject: Re: What happened here?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 14:52 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Image


It looks to me like there's a bit of a hollow just before the damaged sections. Perhaps in some combinations of car handling/speed, the steering goes light as the weight comes off the front wheels, the car seems not to be steering as expected, so the driver winds in more RH lock. When the tyres grip fully, there is too much lock so the rear spins out into the wall?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 16:06 
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Just a thought, you don’t suppose some of those holes in the walls could have been caused by cars swerving to miss other cars that may have been overtaking on double white lines. :o

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 17:02 
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Hang on Ernest, isn't the first photo the same one you used in the "general chat" thread showing free flowing traffic before the 40 limit was introduced?

There you go - lower the limit, cause a traffic jam, problem solved.








Hang on a minute.... :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 17:23 
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Looking at the pic with the 3 accident points circled, there appears to be a layer of road surface worn smooth on the outside edge (i.e. left hand side) of the lane heading up hill.

If (and only if) there is a similar effect on the downhill lane(s), someone taking any kind of corrective action could suddenly find themselves travelling sideways as their car loses grip on what would be a split-friction surface.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 21:06 
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Iffy cambers and a pitching road (reduced G making the car light on it's wheels round the bend) etc all look like a formula for cock-ups. Especially in the wet.

That RH turn in on the last photo certainly isn't a 100mph bend. I suspect that bend would have most modern sports cars drifting wide at maybe 85 in the dry and perhaps 65 in the wet. Average saloon cars, try 50 in the wet????

Just opinions of course but it does look deceiving.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 03:10 
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If you imagine this picture taken from the carriageway and not the verge...
Image
Then you can see the bend ahead would be a little more apparent.
Ice is not a cause - they happen in summer too, exactly the same way.
You can see where the oncoming lane becomes two, that the line of the road for traffic heading into the bend is forced over to the left which I suspect is the nasty little kink which throws drivers, and panics them into stabbing at the brake.
I suspect if the double whites were in the centre of the road, and not squeezed over to the left, the problem would nearly go away - anyone else read it that way?

Remember, you are all looking at this with a view to seeing a problem. The drivers who end up in the wall see it in a split second when they expected to be able to take the corner with ease, and are surprised at the line being so far over to the left. Usually there are no other cars involved other than the victim - which is why I am looking at the circumstances of the road being misleading. They are as far as I can recall, usually family saloons and not sports cars too, so a driver exceeding the limits of his car, in a deceiving bend could all add up.

At night, when lights (or lack of them) of oncoming vehicles allow you to judge oncoming vehicles better, you can cross the double whites with two wheels, and make 60 through this corner with no difficulty :roll: but in the day, when it is wise to stay within the lane, 60 makes the heart leap, and the adrenalin pump (unless you are prepared for it!) :o
I am sure Ian H would take it a little faster..... if circumstances dictated it was necessary.

My older photo with "the kink" title, is taken into the sun - which gives the appearance of mud. It's actually a bit of lens flare 8-) However there does appear to be a bit of shiny tarmac.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 03:22 
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reduce the speed limit and install a safety camera ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 03:23 
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Ernest,
Were many of these crashes at night?
As there are no street lights or telegraph poles, a driver approaching at night may see the road cresting the hill in the distance (especially if a car is oncoming down that stretch) and miss the chicane /kink in the road until its too late.
I cannot see the reason for starting the crawler lane on the bend, as anyone trying to overtake a wagon at this point would be overtaking blind.

Raised carriageway marking (similar to those approaching some roundabouts) may help as might well positioned chevron curve signs.

fatboytim

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 06:26 
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fatboytim wrote:
Ernest,
Were many of these crashes at night?
As there are no street lights or telegraph poles, a driver approaching at night may see the road cresting the hill in the distance (especially if a car is oncoming down that stretch) and miss the chicane /kink in the road until its too late.
I cannot see the reason for starting the crawler lane on the bend, as anyone trying to overtake a wagon at this point would be overtaking blind.

Raised carriageway marking (similar to those approaching some roundabouts) may help as might well positioned chevron curve signs.

fatboytim

Can I buy shares in the local recovery company?

The two lanes leading into the blind bend ARE just wrong. I wrote to the Town Council on this, and was invited to speak at their last meeting. They have agreed to petition the County Council to look into this, as per a previous discussion with Ian H. The police rep on the council is an advanced driver, and was supportive of the ideas I proposed to them.
My suspicion is the County Council will just want to put up a limit sign, rather than repaint and re-engineer the road, so I have been collecting as much evidence as I can that it will not abate the present toll, and that more needs to be done on a whole range of issues - hence suggestions on signage etc. would be welcome.

The raised carriagway markings might help.

The accidents happen at all times of day and night, but principally when there is a quiet spell - hence only one vehicle involved, which would bear out the fact that too much "enthusiasm" is involved - somebody letting themselves go, which is less likely when it is busy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 23:04 
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Ernest,
Why not just do the simple thing, straighten the road and remove the hazard for ever.
RJ

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 00:42 
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Rod Evans wrote:
Ernest,
Why not just do the simple thing, straighten the road and remove the hazard for ever.
RJ

By JOVE, I think he's got it! :lol:
If you look at the diagram entitled "the kink", you will see my dotted line, which I have proposed would take the nastiness out of the bend.
Image

All it involves is re-marking the road, with the dual lane swapped for a hatched lane, which would protect vehicles turning right into a farm/guesthouse, and discourage the frantic overtakes, which end with cars in lane two running out of space on a blind summit and bend.
If it were to start just a few yards up from it's present start point, the kink could be eliminated.

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Last edited by Ernest Marsh on Thu Dec 06, 2007 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 08:10 
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May be the approach sugests an easy bend, then curls up as you approach, tricking the driver. The dry stone wall is lower than the surrounding area. Maybe a row of reflective marker posts would help round the bend.

Change the camber? sounds good.

maybe the undulation of the road leaves the car light on the suspension just at the point that you need grip? The road surface seams to have a visable line of water stored.... better draining road surface?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 14:27 
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Brookwood wrote:
That looks dangerous to me. It looks as though the camber is all wrong at the bend from the photo.

A sign saying 'dangerous bend' would make the road planners look stupid but there should be some sort of warning.

A clue is the holes in the wall of course should make you wonder why they are there.


I am a new member who has been pointed to this thread, after I made a post to say there is no such thing as a dangerous road. I read the above comments with interest.

The suggestion of a signed warning would seem a complete waste of time to me. After all, there is a bend AND dirty great holes knocked through the wall - if clues this big are being missed, what use a sign?

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