Safe Speed Forums

I've just come back from holiday to find a 20mph zone in force around the local primary school just a little way along my street. The zone is marked with one of these and the sign incorporates flashing lights - the limit is only effective when the lights flash. As you leave the zone there is a sign denoting the return to the 30mph limit.

All ok so far? Now the problem:

1. The residential area I live in is already a "20's plenty" zone. On entering from any of the arterial roads surrounding the estate you find signs telling you that "20's plenty". In fact, 20mph is dangerously fast on 75%+ of the roads here due to parked cars limiting road space and visibility/view.
2. The new zone is usually only safely negotiated at speeds of <10-15 mph, except during a very short period at night, when heady speeds of 20 might be safely achieved.

I am really concerned about the contradictory messages being given out here. The last thing we need is drivers thinking that it's ok to do anywhere near 30mph on the road in question, but the sign could easily be interpreted as telling drivers that "it's ok to speed up now, the danger has passed"

I'm going to contact the council, but I'm not sure exactly how to explain the problem in a way that'll make them understand. They've obviously introduced the scheme to try to help - how do I convince them that it's a bad idea? I suppose I could try "speed kills"

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Explain your fears to them, and ask one of them to come for a drive with you. There'll be a million and one answers, and even more reasons why they can't take you up on your offer, but at least you tried. Then, put it all in the local paper.

Might even be worth inviting a reporter along for the drive.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Yes. I like it. Sounds like a really good approach.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Well I visited my local councillor and explained my concerns. He agreed that the signage was inappropriate and contacted the roads department asking them to reconsider.

Their reply:

Dear Councillor,

I refer to your email regarding the concerns raised by MrsMiggins.

You echoed her concern that a roundel at the end of the part-time limit is inappropriate and this has been expressed by several people across Glasgow since the project started. On a strict legal basis, the sign is correct since 'Twenty's Plenty' is only advisory, but, of course, it sends out the wrong signal in an area where motorists are being encouraged to adhere to 20mph or less.

There was some debate about this subject amongst the Society of Chief Officers of Transportation in Scotland (SCOTS) who had initiated the concept. The outcome is that the Scottish Executive approved a plain black and white sign that reads ‘end of part-time limit’. This legally denotes the end of the part-time limit as is required for this mandatory measure. A stock of such signs has been made and will be erected at sites like this as soon as possible.

Discussion also took place regarding signage at the end of ‘Twenty’s Plenty’. The Scottish Executive is strongly opposed to the use of mph repeater signs and the overall view was that on leaving an advisory limit they would be fulfilling this function. No sign has been approved, it being considered that the absence of the markings on the carriageway and the red band denoting the start of the advisory limit for incoming traffic would signal that the regime was changing. In all of this road safety professionals are striving to bring motorists to think on what is the safe speed rather than what is the fastest speed they can get off with.

I think that counts as a result.

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Good god, that reply came from a council?!

I am amazed. If only other councils applied such common sense!

There is hope.

Message sent on behalf of the Head of Roads and Traffic no less.

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

Now that's interesting, I've not heard of these yet. Since I'm about to put a part time twenty outside a school, I'll need to ask higher up about these.

I think the 20 issue will become much more annoying when they are installed permanently. In Victoria a large number of school speed zones are PERMANENT, meaning you can be booked to the horrid sin of driving 4kph over the limit in the wee hours of the morning.

I am all for driving carefully around schools but the problem is that when there are lots of kids about the limit is WAY TOO HIGH and when the kiddies are all in school the limit often still applies for a further 30 minutes to an hour or so when speeds higher than the limit are PERFECTLY SAFE.

Once again, if the limits were enforced with discretion no-one would mind, but when they are enforced by cameras they are more of a distraction than a benefit.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

There's a school run hours only 20 limit round a school in the area I work. They've got round the problem of putting a 30 roundel up at the end of the 20 zone by simply not doing so and not defining where exactly the zone stops. It sounds daft but IMO it's a good approach. Drivers get the flashing lights and sign to warn them they need to slow down, but are given the responsibility of working out for themselves where it is no longer necessary. Could be improved still further if the school kids were told they still need to look before crossing the road

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

20 mph is the maximum, nobody is confused and thinks they need to travel at 20 mph, other than the "I know best" brigade who have "years of expierience" and will speed anyway, unless the council place a camera on the road.

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Why not put on speed limiters we have the technology only idiots break the speed limit

Do you actually read the cr*p you write?

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Did you actually read this thread? The local council, Society of Chief Officers of Transportation and the Scottish Executive all appear to disagree with you, agreeing instead that signing limits does encourage drivers to drive to those limits. Perhaps they inhabit the real world with the rest of us, rather than the 'ideal world' you inhabit?

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Less Kodak, more Kojak.
In times of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

And of course a camera would cure all ills....

In a village not too far from you (<10miles) there is a T junction with a primary school at the 'head' of the T. It also happens to be on a bend in the main road through the village. If one is driving 'down' the main road, the bend is a left hand one, the 2nd road is to the right and the school is on the left hand side. Immediately after the school is the village post office on the left, complete with small car park.
for obvious safety reasons there is plenty of fencing along these stretches of road, and the whole of the road junction is raised tarmac, like a large scale speed hump. ( I have no objection to this one). There are nearly always parked cars near the junction so these and the road layout combine to view visibility somewhat less than perfect.
during school opening/closing hours there is also a lollipop lady doing sterling service.

it is frequently unsafe and often impossible to do more than 20mph along this stretch at any time of day.

'Sensible majority'
Please tell me how a camera alone could possibly improve the safety of this junction.

Oh dear.... (my bold throughout)

I'm surprised he (or she) survived this long without contradicting themselves Smeggy.

Top marks for observation

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

When I lived in NZ there were signs that said school zone with two amber flashing lamps - one above the other, when flashing there was a reduced limit.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk